GalakStarscraper
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Elfball Lite?I've been asked to come up with a faster easier version of Elfball by one of the board game review services and then he would take another look at Elfball.
His kid lost interest in the first 10 minutes and he thought maybe something faster paced with much less rules would work better.
Here are some of my thoughts on how to do this (I'm very open to feedback because he this is good when we get done I'll start including a print out of it with the boxed set games).
1) Use the optional rule for allowing 2 players to move unless the first one flops. The yellow marker for player not allowed to move would go on the player started your turn with the ball (if one did) OR the first of the 2 players to move.
2) Each Conditional Success would allow you to roll an extra dice OR immediately replace one of the dice rolls.
3) Face-off. Any non-Monster type player may do the Face-off. Each player rolls 6 dice for the challenge. If one player's Might + Skill is higher than the other's in the face-off then he may replace a number roll rolls equal to the difference. Highest numbers of successes automatically starts with the ball and that team goes first. Tie means roll again.
4) Remove the Catch roll. All catch rolls are automatic (including the ball bouncing into a standing player's hex).
5) White lines. Instead of reflecting the white lines stop balls dead in their tracks. A ball that would entire a hex with a white line immediately stops dead in the hex that it was in before it would enter the white line hex. If a player is the hex the ball stops dead in he automatically catches the ball.
6) 6 players teams only ... no Replacement rules.
7) No extras ... ie no Zlurpee kegs, cheerleaders, or bribed referees. No skills or advancement rules.
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I'm honestly thinking that these 7 changes would greatly increase the speed of the Test but it would still have most of the flavour of Elfball.
Thoughts?
I've been really kicking this around for a while because I think a key to making Elfball into a really really great family type game is to come up with a Basic version (much like Heroscape did). I think the above 6 items get me there. I'm thinking about typing up a rulebook for this as I think it would be only a few pages.
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Igor Tahavanale
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The biggest slowing factor in Elfball is the way successes are worked out. It's also the way that momentum works really well, but if there was a way of changing the system and keeping a kind of momentum rule without making it run too much like Grandma fantasy football game it'd help the appeal immensely.
That's the biggest time grind. There's no "need a 3" it's "pick up 4 dice, roll them, add them up, re-roll that one and add the result, now check the table..." it's long winded. Now that doesn't mean I don't like the system - I do - but it's not quick enough to make it appeal to someone who wants a fast FF game.
My two penneth.
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Cephalopod
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| Igor Tahavanale wrote: | The biggest slowing factor in Elfball is the way successes are worked out. It's also the way that momentum works really well, but if there was a way of changing the system and keeping a kind of momentum rule without making it run too much like Grandma fantasy football game it'd help the appeal immensely.
That's the biggest time grind. There's no "need a 3" it's "pick up 4 dice, roll them, add them up, re-roll that one and add the result, now check the table..." it's long winded. Now that doesn't mean I don't like the system - I do - but it's not quick enough to make it appeal to someone who wants a fast FF game.
My two penneth. |
I've found in the games I've played so far that after you've attempted the same challenge a few times you learn the rules so well that you don't need to refer to the charts much.
For me the biggest slowdown is the "Get Up" challenges. The need to roll to stand up really slows down the game since you tend to leave downed players on the field rather than risk flopping your turn away. By the end of every test played thus far 80% of the players are on their backs.
If you're going to make a "light" version, consider removing the getup challenge, and just force a player to pay two jog (or all remaing jog) to stand up with no roll required. Granted, I haven't playtested that one yet, but I will try to do so this weekend. However, it would really pick up the pace of the game since you wouldn't need to make a roll at all.
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Tarota
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Re: Elfball Lite? | GalakStarscraper wrote: | I've been asked to come up with a faster easier version of Elfball by one of the board game review services and then he would take another look at Elfball.
...
1) Use the optional rule for allowing 2 players to move unless the first one flops. The yellow marker for player not allowed to move would go on the player started your turn with the ball (if one did) OR the first of the 2 players to move.
2) Each Conditional Success would allow you to roll an extra dice OR immediately replace one of the dice rolls.
3) Face-off. Any non-Monster type player may do the Face-off. Each player rolls 6 dice for the challenge. If one player's Might + Skill is higher than the other's in the face-off then he may replace a number roll rolls equal to the difference. Highest numbers of successes automatically starts with the ball and that team goes first. Tie means roll again.
4) Remove the Catch roll. All catch rolls are automatic (including the ball bouncing into a standing player's hex).
5) White lines. Instead of reflecting the white lines stop balls dead in their tracks. A ball that would entire a hex with a white line immediately stops dead in the hex that it was in before it would enter the white line hex. If a player is the hex the ball stops dead in he automatically catches the ball.
6) 6 players teams only ... no Replacement rules.
7) No extras ... ie no Zlurpee kegs, cheerleaders, or bribed referees. No skills or advancement rules.
...
Thoughts? |
6 and 7 seem like no-brainers: very simple changes to make, and a good way to introduce the game. 5 seems OK: it's a little less chaotic, but does save some time. I've never understood why people find the Face-off challenge difficult, so I don't see that 3 is necessary; I suppose the "start with the ball" part is a bit simpler, and probably doesn't affect the final outcome much. And 4 seems to change the game a great deal to me: 2 success tests are hard, and removing them is going to make for a lot more passing. If that's a goal, fine, but I think anyone moving from basic to advanced (current) rules will hit a brick wall when their passing plays fall apart at twice the rate.
For 1 and 2, I'd have to try playing with them.
For what I can tell, this isn't going to hit the 10 minute "interest" window that this guy's kid had. Did he really want the test done in 10 minutes, or was it just that there didn't seem to be enough progress in 10 minutes?
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Igor Tahavanale
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| Cephalopod wrote: | | [I've found in the games I've played so far that after you've attempted the same challenge a few times you learn the rules so well that you don't need to refer to the charts much. |
In fairness I should point out that this is true, but the main part of my point was that the dice mechanic is extremely slow. Elfball Lite could be acheived without dropping any rules if the dice system were different, that's all I was saying.
But yes, you are completely correct in this point.
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Cephalopod
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| Igor Tahavanale wrote: | Elfball Lite could be acheived without dropping any rules if the dice system were different, that's all I was saying.
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Ah, gotcha. I read that as a comment that looking up all of the various challenges and their results was time consuming.
I can see what you're saying about the dice mechanics of Elfball, but to me that is a great part of the appeal. The odds change quickly with momentum, conditionals, and flops. 
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Tarota
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| Igor Tahavanale wrote: | | ...the main part of my point was that the dice mechanic is extremely slow. |
It is a little slow, but then the conditional rolls and momentum rerolls also seem to build suspense. That is to say it's slow, but still exciting, since you're still rolling dice and those dice will either be putting you over the top or getting you a ton of momentum.
But since we're looking at total test time, not time spent satisfying the urge to roll dice, I suppose we could try to "fix" it  . If you make conditional successes worth two successes, that might be the simplest solution: the expectation number of successes from a conditional success is 1.4, so you would succeed at challenges a little more often, but hopefully not by too much more than you would have anyway. (Alternately, you could make them worth 1.5 successes, and round the final total up. I think that's too fiddly, but it gets the probabilities closer.) Now you have at most two rounds of rolls: the initial one, and momentum rerolls. Much faster.
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bouncergriim
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maybe you could make it to where you will only roll a conditional once. No double conditions so on the second roll it is either success, flop, or nothing. That could speed it up a bit and still keep the flavour of conditionals.
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GalakStarscraper
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Actually I'm leaning still towards my list I first posted with the following changes now.
Conditional rolls (ie stars) are worth 2 successes. That would dramatically speed up the dice rolls (and increase the success rate which is what I was doing anyway with stars being able to replace Flops).
Get-up replaced with:
If you are Down ... you need to use 5-Grit worth of Jog to stand up. If your Grit is 5 or more you can stand up for no Jog points.
If you are Dazed ... you need to use all of your Jog to stand up.
Making the Catch challenge require a dice roll as normal except for cases where the ball was thrown to you by a player in an adjacent hex in which case no Catch challenge roll is needed. It is automatically successful.
Galak
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GalakStarscraper
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In the interest of trying to make the first GenCon Elfball tournament fun and fast paced ... I've decided that the touranment will use the Lite version of the rules.
After playing out a couple things and reading through your feedback ... here is where the Lite rules are at this time:
1) A Star roll on the challenge dice now counts as 2 successes instead of the conditional success.
2) Each team picks 8 players ... so only 2 reserve players.
3) If the player throwing the ball is next to the player catching the ball, no catch roll is needed for a successful Throw challenge (ie the Catch challenge is automatically successful).
4) If you are Down you can spend 5-your Grit score in Jog to Get Up (you may not Get Up if you don't have enough Jog left). Players with Grit 5 or 6 may Get Up for no Jog cost. If you are Dazed, you may spend all of your Jog to stand up. The Get Up challenge is deleted.
5) For the Face-off sequence ... do this instead. Each Face-off player (no Monster types allowed) rolls 6 Challenge dice and counts the successes. If one of the player's Might+Skill is higher than his opponent's Might+Skill he may add that number to the number of successes he rolled. If a player flops the 6 dice roll, he is placed Down. If both players flop the 6 dice roll, ignore the results and roll again. Roll the Face-off again if the final result for each player results in a tie. The player with the highest number of successes automatically get the Elfball and his team may take the first turn.
6) Don't use any of the sideline extras: Zlurpee Kegs, Bribed Referees, or Cheerleaders.
7) White lines. Instead of reflecting, the white lines stop the thrown/bouncing ball dead in its tracks. A ball that would entire a hex with a white line immediately stops dead in the hex that it was in before it would enter the white line hex. If a player is in the hex the ball stops dead in he may try to catch the ball.
And if you really want to speed up the game even more than apply change #8 for a faster/less random game:
8 ) During each team's turn, two players may be moved instead of just one unless the first player suffers a Shift in Momentum (in which case the 2nd player does not get to move). You do not have to choose the second player to be moved until the first has completed his action. The player that receives the yellow last moved marker is the first player to move each turn unless the second player moved started his team turn with the ball in which case the second player moved gets the yellow last moved marker.
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What I haven't decided yet for the GenCon tournament is whether to use rule #8?
I'm allowing 60 minutes for each game at GenCon and they'll be played to one test. With Lite rules 1 through 7 ... will that be enough to keep the tournament going with 60 minute rounds or should we do the first year with rule #8 to be safe and if the rounds end easily within 60 minutes than next year look at not using rule #8 for Lite?
In a tournament setting ... I think a faster version just needs to be used.
Tom/Galak
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Dark Lord
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I think most of them are great but I don't get how #5 speeds anything up.
Roll your player's Might worth of dice, and compare successes compared to "roll 6 Challenge dice and counts the successes. If one of the player's Might+Skill is higher than his opponent's Might+Skill he may add that number to the number of successes he rolled."
Besides I liked the fact that it took Might to win the face off, but most high might players had low skill.
With this rule there's no decision. Throw a Striker up there...he's equally able to win the face off but way more capable of grabbing the ball.
Meh..don't like that.
As far as #8 goes...I think only play testing would determine if you want to use it or not.
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Tarota
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| GalakStarscraper wrote: | | 4) If you are Down you can spend 5-your Grit score in Jog to Get Up (you may not Get Up if you don't have enough Jog left). If you are Dazed, you may spend all of your Jog to stand up. The Get Up challenge is deleted. |
Just a nit: what is the minimum Jog cost to get up? I mean, I know Deadling skeletons are pretty low to the ground, but I doubt you intended for them to "spend" -1 Jog if they get knocked down... What I don't know is whether you intended them to get up for free, or pay a nominal 1 Jog instead.
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GalakStarscraper
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| Dark Lord wrote: | I think most of them are great but I don't get how #5 speeds anything up.
Roll your player's Might worth of dice, and compare successes compared to "roll 6 Challenge dice and counts the successes. If one of the player's Might+Skill is higher than his opponent's Might+Skill he may add that number to the number of successes he rolled."
Besides I liked the fact that it took Might to win the face off, but most high might players had low skill.
With this rule there's no decision. Throw a Striker up there...he's equally able to win the face off but way more capable of grabbing the ball.
Meh..don't like that. |
What I'm trying to do is right now you have this:
1) Face-off Challenge using Might
2) Shove, Tackle, or Pick-up Challenge
3) Team starts but maybe not with the ball (allowing a cluster at midfield more easily which slows the game down)
The Lite version is this:
1) Face-off Challenge 6 dice ... if Might+Skill is higher add that many successes to the roll.
2) Winner starts with the ball
So you totally eliminate one challenge from the Face-off and you always have a team that starts with the ball in hand not adjacent to an opponent which should avoid any mid-field cluster slowing down the game.
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Now that I've explained why its an improvement ... do you still disagree DL?
And editing my notes above ... I mean for Grit 5 and 6 players to stand for 0 Jog cost.
Galak
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GalakStarscraper
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Honestly ... I want to make this a working version.
The biggest critic that Elfball has had now from the gaming reviewers I've spoken to via email is that it needs a faster version with less flops and dice rolling as part of the boxed set.
I also think that if we are going to be sponsering tournaments that the Lite version needs to aim for that type of play.
SSSSoooo ... to me its funny ... folks always wanted one rule set for tournaments and one for league play with B.lood B.owl. It looks like that is exactly want I would like to do now with Elfball. I think if you find a version of Elfball that can be played tournament style and still feel like Elfball (the league version) ... you'll have a winner.
Galak
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Dark Lord
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| GalakStarscraper wrote: | | Now that I've explained why its an improvement ... do you still disagree DL?Galak |
I missed the fact that they automatically got the ball.
I see how it's faster...but it doesn't seem like it's gonna do anything but make the face-off player a bunch of Defenders and Dryads.
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GalakStarscraper
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| Dark Lord wrote: | | I see how it's faster...but it doesn't seem like it's gonna do anything but make the face-off player a bunch of Defenders and Dryads. |
Okay ... but don't make a statement like that and walk away ... you have a good mind for this type of thing.
Now that you see what I'm trying to do to the Face-off ... single dice roll with the winner getting the ball.
How would you structure that??? A change to what I wrote ... or something else ... I'm open to the ideas.
Galak
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Dark Lord
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| GalakStarscraper wrote: | | Dark Lord wrote: | | I see how it's faster...but it doesn't seem like it's gonna do anything but make the face-off player a bunch of Defenders and Dryads. |
Okay ... but don't make a statement like that and walk away ... you have a good mind for this type of thing. |
Heh sorry. I just meant that Defenders have Jog 5 and might 4, and Dryads have Jog 6 and might 4.
If I didn't have to worry about picking up the ball the next things I would look at are A. How fast can they make it to the goal, and B. How hard are they to tackle. Which means if I could give the ball to anyone on my team (1cept monsters) it would go to the biggest and toughest player...provided they could score in 2-3 turns.
After a face off if my Dryad had the ball and I could take a turn I would just move up a second and third Dryad to cover her. Then wait for one turn to reset everyone. With two players covering it should be easy, especially since a lot of teams can't make it to the center ring AND have enough jog to Tackle or Shove somebody.
Then I would move the two Dryads down the pitch. Next turn I would move the third up for more cover where needed and shove any problems out of thew way. Next turn I would walk it in.
With Might 4 against teams that have little or no Might this is gonna be tough. They will have only a couple shots to take out the ball carrier and by moving 2 players at once I can keep them covered even more.
A team like The Night Elves, Gnolls, Razorbacks, and Black Widows are gonna have a real hard time against Dervishes, Dryads, Defenders, and Dwarf Centaurs.
| GalakStarscraper wrote: | Now that you see what I'm trying to do to the Face-off ... single dice roll with the winner getting the ball.
How would you structure that??? A change to what I wrote ... or something else ... I'm open to the ideas.
Galak |
I'm not sure how I would fix what I see as a potential problem, only that I would definitely say the Face Off winner has to move in the first turn.
But actually if I wanted to speed up Elfball I would keep Rules #1, #3, #4, #7, and add 4 to everyone's Jog.
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Tarota
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| GalakStarscraper wrote: | | Now that you see what I'm trying to do to the Face-off ... single dice roll with the winner getting the ball. |
Idea from the peanut gallery:
The winner of the face-off may either get the ball in their initial hex (if Skill > Might), or move next to their opponent and automatically Shove them (if Might > Skill). If Skill and Might are equal, the winner may pick one of the two options.
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GalakStarscraper
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| Tarota wrote: | | GalakStarscraper wrote: | | Now that you see what I'm trying to do to the Face-off ... single dice roll with the winner getting the ball. |
Idea from the peanut gallery:
The winner of the face-off may either get the ball in their initial hex (if Skill > Might), or move next to their opponent and automatically Shove them (if Might > Skill). If Skill and Might are equal, the winner may pick one of the two options. |
I like that a lot. Solves a lot of the issues that Dark Lord was speaking to of making tough players the preferred players to do the Face-off.
Okay nice idea Tarota.
Galak
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brownrob
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Is there a final version of ElfBall Lite rules tom? Ill try to update the VASSAL mod with them
Also, say Ive 3+3 skill/might and come up against a player with 4+4
Do they add 2 successes to the faceoff roll or is it 8? I couldnt see which way
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GalakStarscraper
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| brownrob wrote: | Is there a final version of ElfBall Lite rules tom? Ill try to update the VASSAL mod with them
Also, say Ive 3+3 skill/might and come up against a player with 4+4
Do they add 2 successes to the faceoff roll or is it 8? I couldnt see which way |
Download the version 5.1 rules from the website.
Most of Lite was turned into the official rules of the game. The only two that stayed as Optional rules were the modifications to the Challenge Dice and the Face-off ... but both of those are found in the Optional Rules section.
Galak
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brownrob
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Ah brill thanks Tom!
I hadnt looked at 5.1 yet
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