SillySod
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Elfball Tactics/StrategiesI'm pretty new to the game but after inflicting several punishing defeats to brownrob I thought I'd start a thread on Elfball general strategy. I'll make some observations/suggestions in this thread but I'd love to hear some from the rest of you as well as some critique.
I've broken it down into tactics and strategy, best summarised as what to do with your players (tactics) and how to get them into positions where they can do that effectively (strategy).
Tactics
Faceoff
The first thing that hits you is that you really want a player with high might in the centre circle at the start so you have the best chance of that early boost. Because you are putting a strong player in the circle generally that means you want to use your free action to tackle. Once you've taken the first turn too the chaces are that their forward player is down or worse and you have the ball either picked up or reasonably well covered.
If you do take a less mighty player then would assume that (should you win the faceoff) you'd shove their player off the ball, pick it up, and throw it back to one of your players to secure it.
It looks like having a mighty tackler is the most powerful option, is this right?
Momentum
Momentum is pretty powerful when it really starts working for you. I've found that even with players who are only moderate at shoving you usually want to go for some (relatively low risk) shoves before hitting them with that tackle because you might get that bit of extra momentum to make you tackle hit hard. With strong players this becomes VERY strong.... if a deadwood manages to get a shove and then a tackle you can say goodbye to whatever it just hit. Shoving a few weak players on your way to the leviathon also looks rewarding.
It looks like the same applies to imps and dodging, running through a few tacklezones should be positively healthy for the imps action (I guess you could rationalise this as being confusing and the momentum as taking advantage of split second indecision). Can other actions be "milked" in the same way?
Player marking
It occured to me that you could do some nice manuevers making use of the alternating players rule. Once your target has moved you can potentially move a player up to mark them (while perhaps tackling another player or something). You can then move another player up and shove/tackle with the support of your team mate. It looks like this could seriously improve your chances of first the momentum shove and secondly taking out and hopefully removing a big guy or perhaps it could be a good way to turn hunters/defenders into killers.
Marking also seems quite nice with deadwoods but for tying stuff up. Do you use either tactic often and in what situation... would you actively engineer it turns in advance?
Strategy
The strategies seem to be about maximising your potential at three things: covering ground, keeping players so they can support one another, and moving the ball. There are alot of potential strategies (which is what I love about the game) but I tried to pick out some of the more extreme or clearly defined ones (or ones which were more "obvious" to me).
Holding ground
This is something which I used against brownrob while I was using deadwoods, dwarfs also look pretty decent at it but in a different way (because their ballcarrier will be strong and faster but their players generally weaker and more vulnerable). The idea is to try and place your strong tacklers such that opposing players will find it hard to get at the ball (or get the ball past) without being hit by your monster players. Equally each one should be in range to protect/avenge another, should it be attacked. Ideally you create situations where one deadwood (for example) is covering and tying up two other players who will find it hard to get anywhere fast.
It seems good but not always necessary to have a full back defender such as a hunter or mummy. Potentially you could have a mummy or something positioned to cut down any reinforcements as they run on.
How would you play the endgame for this? A surgical strike, a grind until they have no more players, or a slow plodding advance right up to the goal circle?
One naughty thing you could potentially do is give the ball to a deadwood by making a pickup and short throw with a more skilled player.... two successes and it will automatically catch. How well does this work, a deadwood looks like a nightmare to knock down if its in the middle of a team.
Swift running play
How about a running play where the objective is to hit one side of the board with alot of pressure suddenly? Maybe some short passes within a group but only for position rather than to gain ground. This looks like your best option gainst deadwoods, if you can tie up or break through their line then they are vulnerable.
Passing play
Using short passes and thinking ahead so you have a relay system.... has anyone got that working effectively?
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Dark Lord
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Re: Elfball Tactics/StrategiesI apologize but I have to pick at your strategy a little bit. This is just my opinion versus yours...not a statement of my way is the right way.
| SillySod wrote: | | The first thing that hits you is that you really want a player with high might in the centre circle at the start so you have the best chance of that early boost. Because you are putting a strong player in the circle generally that means you want to use your free action to tackle. |
I have come to find that losing the faceoff isn't the end of the world. In fact, if your team doesn't have that much skill it can be better to let the other guy worry about what to do with the ball early on and just position your players while you wait for him to Flop. Skill is just as important on the faceoff as might...although with Tom's new faceoff rules I'm not sure how accurate that is anymore.
| SillySod wrote: | If you do take a less mighty player then would assume that (should you win the faceoff) you'd shove their player off the ball, pick it up, and throw it back to one of your players to secure it.
It looks like having a mighty tackler is the most powerful option, is this right? |
Right to a point. I almost never Tackle if I win the faceoff no matter how much Tackle and Might my player has. If I do plan on getting the ball first I never choose to throw a Tackle as my faceoff action. I ALWAYS Shove. Tackles are too risky in that area...can't get them from behind, there's no assists, and there is little to no Momentum built-and what little Momentum there is will be needed just to secure and chuck the ball.
| SillySod wrote: | | Momentum is pretty powerful when it really starts working for you. I've found that even with players who are only moderate at shoving you usually want to go for some (relatively low risk) shoves before hitting them with that tackle because you might get that bit of extra momentum to make you tackle hit hard. With strong players this becomes VERY strong.... if a deadwood manages to get a shove and then a tackle you can say goodbye to whatever it just hit. Shoving a few weak players on your way to the leviathon also looks rewarding. |
This is all very true but I will say one thing. Shoves > Tackles in most situations. Yeah it's always great to break the other guy's jaw for him but if all you need is that guy's front three off the ball or your player's hex, then a Shove is always superior. The risk of your own player going down is so much less. And I find that knocking players out of bounds is more satisfying than simply bashing them.
| SillySod wrote: | | Can other actions be "milked" in the same way? |
Anything can be used to create Momentum but every time you roll those dice you are taking a risk. There's a balance in EB of milking Momentum and waiting for the other team to fumble the ball.
| SillySod wrote: | | Marking also seems quite nice with deadwoods but for tying stuff up. Do you use either tactic often and in what situation... would you actively engineer it turns in advance? |
I suppose I use this tactic a little bit, but the problem is that our games generally aren't very Tackle heavy and the target with ball changes every turn. Our games are generally a lot of jockeying for position and then once the ball advances you have 2 maybe 3 turns before it goes into your circle.
| SillySod wrote: | Holding ground
This is something which I used against brownrob while I was using deadwoods, dwarfs also look pretty decent at it but in a different way (because their ballcarrier will be strong and faster but their players generally weaker and more vulnerable). The idea is to try and place your strong tacklers such that opposing players will find it hard to get at the ball (or get the ball past) without being hit by your monster players. Equally each one should be in range to protect/avenge another, should it be attacked. Ideally you create situations where one deadwood (for example) is covering and tying up two other players who will find it hard to get anywhere fast.
It seems good but not always necessary to have a full back defender such as a hunter or mummy. Potentially you could have a mummy or something positioned to cut down any reinforcements as they run on.
How would you play the endgame for this? A surgical strike, a grind until they have no more players, or a slow plodding advance right up to the goal circle?
One naughty thing you could potentially do is give the ball to a deadwood by making a pickup and short throw with a more skilled player.... two successes and it will automatically catch. How well does this work, a deadwood looks like a nightmare to knock down if its in the middle of a team. |
I have not had much luck with Deadlings but I can tell you one thing about monsters in the game. They may be causing fear at your tables because of a Bl00d B0wl hold over but around here (or actually back in my home town) we learned that once you make that Impact challenge they go down...and they usually go down hard. It's Tackle vs. Dodge and they ain't got no dodge. More than a few times I have been sitting at the table pouting while my opponent giggles "TIMBERRRRR!!"
And I don't know what the endgame for that strategy would be. Sounds like it's all defense...and defense doesn't go that far in Elfball.
| SillySod wrote: | | How about a running play where the objective is to hit one side of the board with alot of pressure suddenly? Maybe some short passes within a group but only for position rather than to gain ground. This looks like your best option against deadwoods, if you can tie up or break through their line then they are vulnerable. |
I never advance the ball until I have positioned my players. I think I play somewhere between a mix of this one and the first one you listed. If I have possession of the ball I hold it in my back field until my scoring team is set in a way that we can "alley oop" or relay the ball to goal circle within a couple turns and then I hold my ground for a couple turns while I do that.
Passing play
Using short passes and thinking ahead so you have a relay system.... has anyone got that working effectively?[/quote]
Well that's what I just described, lol. Although I should state that most of the time my positioning is going on without possession of the ball. I don't concern myself with the ball until after I know I can use it. I let the other guy flop his pass roll and then try to capitalize on his mistake.
I realized that in Elfball you are going to Flop. You are. Just accept it and deal with it. So knowing that I will certainly flop I can assume my opponent will too. So IMO the best strategy is one that allows me to capitalize on that Flop.
In Bl00d B0wl you: 1. secured the ball and 2. built a cage around the carrier and then 3. Advanced up the field.
In Elfball it's backwards and there ain't no cage. You gotta advance up the field as if you had the ball and understand that there is no "ball carrier"...at least 3 or 4 guys from your team will probably touch it in one Test.
All in all it looks like you are really getting into the game and I your mind must be a load of spinning gears right now. I don't think I envy brownrob playing against such a thinking and analytical opponent. 
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brownrob
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Heh, games have been pretty fun though  Even though it means I get 5 hours sleep before work the next day!!!
Ive played a few games vs SillySod now
Game1 Sarcos vs Razorbacks
My strategy revolved around tring to position guys but I did manage to flop quite a lot! I was playing high risk trying to milk momentum by dodging in behind players and hitting from behind. Didnt always work!
In the end I lost when his Swinetaur managed to push my Leviathan into the goal circle and crush my defence! Lesson learned, dont stand beside the goal circle!! We played 6v6 with no subs
Game2 Deadlings vs Razorbacks
This time I thought Id try Deadlings. The games SS and I have tend to be very tackle heavy. Usually building shoves up to make a big tackle. I lost a vampling on the faceoff, and a deadwood soon after, a series of bad dice for both of us allowed my Deadwood to get in and cause havoc in around the ball. At about 2:30am we called it a night and a draw!
Game3 Gnomes vs Deadlings
This game I lost the faceoff again! 3 from 3 :D Anyway, I tried to play a little smater this time, I tried to outmanouver the trees, which worked OK for a time, but then I ended up with 2 machines down vs a tree, and couldnt really get up. I missedd an opportunity to surf a vampling, and also missed that my gnome was in tackling range of the deadwood!!! SS creamed the remainder of my team and the tree managed to score, the shame!!!
I think Im getting better, I really need to shake off my FF hangover, though its 95% gone!
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Dark Lord
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Will either of you be at Indy?
EDIT: Oh wait. "Silly SOD..."centre" instead of center...you probably won't make it.
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SillySod
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Indy? At the moment I'm just goint to the GT.
Thanks for the feedback
Although its tempting to just beat brownrob in the face with whichever team he chose last time  I think I'll go for either night elves for a slightly different perspective on the game or possibly dwarfs because they look interesting
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Dark Lord
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I have had a good time with both Black Widows and Middle Kingdoms.
Black Widows are so good with the ball it's incredible...and will frustrate the heck out of a bashy team's coach.
Middle Kingdoms are a little more heavy in the bash department but they still are good with the ball.
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Mephisto
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After watching the review on the other post (the video) I want to play Elfball!!!!!
Which teams do you recommend me?
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mattwakeman
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Question for DL here. You have stated a few times that you more often play without the ball and are happy to lose the face off in order to win it down field. Have you played any games using the new passing rules because I am wondering if these make that tactic less playable at all.
Also I totally agree in another comment that you made that EBall is a much thoughtful game than...the other one. It actually plays much more like a real game rather than knee deep in fantasy blood!
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Dark Lord
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I have played with the new passing rules (they were mine  ) and you are correct it does create less opportunity to capitalize on failure...but I haven't seen it affect me too much.
Maybe because one thing I have neglected to mention is that I do try to force those fumbles and failing that I am not above a little smash mouth play...in fact I know it seems from my posts that I never tackle or play "hurt ball" but nothing could be further from the truth...I love crashing my treeman and widowmaker into people!!
Put it this way, when I play Middle Kingdoms I use 2nd edition Orc proxies.
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brownrob
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Im currently thinking (yes I do think!!!) about combining players into units. Would you use 3 units of 2 players or 2 units of 3 players, keeping 3 back and 3 for offence. Or do you have a sort of fluid formation
When starting, do you move lots without making challenges to get a bit of position, do you advance far into the opposition half? Sort of like a chess opening?
How do you deal with coaches who love to pummel you into the turf like B.B.?
What do you do with your Player in the Guard Circle? I normally stick a big brute with high might/tackle in there (Defender/Monster) though he suffers low manouverability. Also, do you keep your Guardian where he is for last ditch defending? Or do you advance him up the field?
How do you see the strategy of placing players say 6 Jog from an open hunter? Is luring a player into a tackle like that a good Idea as there is a chance he can flop and cant accrue momentum?
Thanks :D
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SillySod
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| brownrob wrote: | | Im currently thinking |
I fell off my chair.
| Quote: | | How do you deal with coaches who love to pummel you into the turf like B.B.? |
That would be me? There might be a better answer but I'm guessing that you want to score.
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Dark Lord
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| brownrob wrote: | | Im currently thinking (yes I do think!!!) about combining players into units. Would you use 3 units of 2 players or 2 units of 3 players, keeping 3 back and 3 for offence. Or do you have a sort of fluid formation |
It depends on what team I have and what team I am playing against. If (like you) I am playing against the Bashy Bay Grinders I tend to send at least three...four if I can spare it forward on offense. The Strikers will need protection to get into position and if my opponent is spending his time tackling he's probably not penetrating my backfield very deeply so I don't need to keep more than two dudes back there to deal with him.
On average I break my team into offensive and defensive squads. In Elfball teamwork and proximity is everything. A squad of a Striker, a Safety and a Midfielder who stay in a tight group (as much as they can) makes a good scoring team.
| brownrob wrote: | | When starting, do you move lots without making challenges to get a bit of position, do you advance far into the opposition half? Sort of like a chess opening? |
Yes...for the most part. As with any strategy in Elfball...it's fluid, you gotta roll with the punches.
| brownrob wrote: | | How do you deal with coaches who love to pummel you into the turf like B.B.? |
Since I think you're talking about one coach in particular, and he/she reads this board I will PM you some sneaky tricks.
| brownrob wrote: | | What do you do with your Player in the Guard Circle? I normally stick a big brute with high might/tackle in there (Defender/Monster) though he suffers low manouverability. Also, do you keep your Guardian where he is for last ditch defending? Or do you advance him up the field? |
That is where I usually stick my biggest and slowest and yeah they usually don't move until the comes within range and in the hands of the opponent. Call it last ditch defending, I guess.
| brownrob wrote: | | How do you see the strategy of placing players say 6 Jog from an open hunter? Is luring a player into a tackle like that a good Idea as there is a chance he can flop and cant accrue momentum? |
I think it's a good idea, as long as you realize it's a gamble.
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SillySod
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Can you post them on the board after brownrobs had three or four days to milk them?
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Dark Lord
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Maybe. I'm not giving him any "move here and do this" type tricks. Just advice that I have gleaned from playing against rabid bashy types.
The one trick I told him that I have already said in public is that nobody in Elfball should fear monsters. If you can beat that Impact Challenge they go down hard. Tackles defend with Dodge, not Might so hit those beasts!!
4 Cheerleaders helps gain the momentum to win the Impact Challenge and insure an injury.
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SillySod
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One reason why I like my giant piggy pigs :D
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Dark Lord
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All they do is shove.
Effective yes, and they are a good player...but I don't consider them bashing threats.
As soon as your Piggies meet a Widowmaker I suspect Brownrob will be cooking bacon.
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Dark Lord
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I have changed my tactics a little now that i am using Black Widows mainly.
I have developed a couple different styles of play. In one I leave my Widowmaker in the goalie spot and send everyone else forward in a swarm, last one to advance is the thrower with the ball. This swarm tactic has worked out fairly well. Against bashier teams it's trickier because you make sure you stay together and avoid the "pick offs"
But overloading the defense (or putting the opposition strictly on defense) has worked well. He can't capitalize on my errors if he is locked in his own half!
The other strategy with Black Widows has been a more aggressive style. I got sick of my Widowmaker being targeted and removed early in the game by bash squads. So I put her in the face off (Might 3 is respectable). If I win the face off, or don't get taken out I burn some cheerleaders and and use the momentum to gut the other face off player right away! Then drop myself and the ball back as much as I can. At that point I bring up hunters from the circles and wait for the opponent to come to me. Yeah, bashing with elves! Nothing like it!
If you can afford it a risky (but fun option) is to get a potion and use it on the widowmaker. Then take Cheapshot! Or just get her leveled up to that. Which mine will be soon. She would have been earlier but she was always dead by the time the goal was scored.
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GroovyCheetah
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WOW silly sod from FUMBBL i just joined impact minis but u are a awsome guy on fumbbl. (srry about this being of this topic)
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Cephalopod
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Heya,
A quick list of questions:
With 5.1 how has the game changed in regards to the strategies in this thread?
How do you keep players have being taken down since caging doesn't work? Our experience has been that as soon as one player moves forward, they get shoved, then tackled and knocked down in short order.
How do you keep someone in scoring position from being knocked down or taken out? Currently my solution has been to move up a sacrificial player and then put a midfielder behind them. When the sacrifice gets taken out the midfielder moves up and slams their defender.
What defense do most coaches adopt to start? Just one player in the defenders circle or a squad of 2 to 3? How are those 2-3 players set up?
Does anyone have any other advice for offense/defense? I've got 4 new players and I'd like to give them solid advice, but I don't have a handle on good strategy yet myself.
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