bouncergriim
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How long does an average test take?Okay, seen this a lot and am just curious. How long does your average test take (not full game, just a test). Ignore interuptions and the such.
Also what do you do that increases or decrease the length of a test. I am looking for time cutting measures, my test take far too long in my opinion.
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Stout Youngblood
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I don't understand why we are taking so long except we flop A LOT!!! Usually after we move the ball in one direction to within scoring range, flop, move the ball in the other direction to within scoring range, flop. Then move flop, he moves flop, flop, flop, flop, etc.
Of course, we haven't been able to play many games, one a month or so, so we are still learning. 
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Igor Tahavanale
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Absolutely ages, but then I don't get to play very often. I don't think that discounts the vailidity of my input though, see it as a learning test time... it's potentially off-putting to new players.
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Darkson
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The last I played took about 45mins, at about 1am in the NAF referees' hotel bar vs. Venomus Breath. That said, we'd both had a view, so I can't be completely sure we were playing properly!
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Dark Lord
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Just played 6+ games and the average was definitely around 45 minutes.
And I'd like to add that our games take around the same amount of time as a game of fantasy football (okay maybe slightly longer in some cases) but are way more exciting!
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bouncergriim
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Just played a test last weekend that lasted 4 hours! We know the rules and are getting faster, but as soon I one of use would get near the goal a flop would occur and then the other would recover... some more flops and recoveries. Now it is on the other side of the feild... same thing happens. Luck played a huge part in this, but I think we also need to find a strategy that works. 
I love that nothing is a sure thing in Elfball, but in the same regard every time we tried to set up something it went wrong. Any pointers, or do we just have to go to the two players a turn thing?
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GalakStarscraper
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In 4 hours how did you not have the majority of the players off the pitch?
The idea I had with Elfball is that if the test goes "too long" than attrition will solve the problem.
Galak
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Dark Lord
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| bouncergriim wrote: | Just played a test last weekend that lasted 4 hours! We know the rules and are getting faster, but as soon I one of use would get near the goal a flop would occur and then the other would recover... some more flops and recoveries. Now it is on the other side of the feild... same thing happens. Luck played a huge part in this, but I think we also need to find a strategy that works.
I love that nothing is a sure thing in Elfball, but in the same regard every time we tried to set up something it went wrong. Any pointers, or do we just have to go to the two players a turn thing? |
I would love to get something going in vassal because you have to be doing something wrong here.
4 hours for ONE score?! 
How many players per team?
How many on the pitch at one time?
Using Reserves?
How many injuries did you have?
How often are you rolling for pushes rather than tackles?
How often are you ending your turn without handing off the ball?
But like Tom said, I don't see how you could go four hours without removing enough players to make scoring easier.
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Tarota
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I still average 1.5 hours, although I think that might still be learning curve. It's hard to tell, because the only times I don't flop are when I don't take time to plan: if I ever bother to set up a play, even if it involves a single 4-die roll, it's guaranteed to flop. It's uncanny, I tell you!
| GalakStarscraper wrote: | In 4 hours how did you not have the majority of the players off the pitch?
The idea I had with Elfball is that if the test goes "too long" than attrition will solve the problem. |
I had a 2-2.5 hour test where we only injured one person, IIRC. If you spend too much time trying to tackle people, then you end up with lots of "both players down" results: slows the game down, with no chance of injury. And in demo games I don't try to introduce extras like potions or cheerleaders, so we have a full 6-man reserve. This was my longest test, though, and we had at least one "run the length of the field only to flop on the scoring turn" drive for each side. Those really run up the clock.
The real problem is the longer games are being played by the least experienced people. A VASSAL classroom or something is probably going to be necessary, just so isolated players have a chance to figure things out.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | How often are you ending your turn without handing off the ball? |
Every time you do this you have a 21% chance of flopping (assuming both players are skill 4). So, if he's doing it every turn, I can see how the ball would never get anywhere  .
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Dark Lord
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| Tarota wrote: | | I still average 1.5 hours, although I think that might still be learning curve. It's hard to tell, because the only times I don't flop are when I don't take time to plan: if I ever bother to set up a play, even if it involves a single 4-die roll, it's guaranteed to flop. It's uncanny, I tell you! |
It can seem that way but, just like Bl00d B0wl, you have to learn to minimize your risks.
| Tarota wrote: | | I had a 2-2.5 hour test where we only injured one person, IIRC. If you spend too much time trying to tackle people, then you end up with lots of "both players down" results: slows the game down, with no chance of injury. |
The attacking player can stand up again after the "both down" You know this right? And with a cheap shot an injury can occur.
| Tarota wrote: | | And in demo games I don't try to introduce extras like potions or cheerleaders, so we have a full 6-man reserve. |
With no extras you should be running "Pick 10" games. With the basic rules you don't get 12 men, you only get 10.
| Tarota wrote: | | This was my longest test, though, and we had at least one "run the length of the field only to flop on the scoring turn" drive for each side. Those really run up the clock. |
You should be able to move the ball the length of the field in 2-3 turns.
Is this true for you?
| Tarota wrote: | | The real problem is the longer games are being played by the least experienced people. A VASSAL classroom or something is probably going to be necessary, just so isolated players have a chance to figure things out. |
The basic strategies have been written up, and are all over here. You should print them off or direct your players here. You simply can't play Bl00d B0wl style with this game. It just doesn't work.
It sounds like your league desperately needs somebody to unlock the basics, and kick everybody's ass. Then they can copy him.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | How often are you ending your turn without handing off the ball? |
| Tarota wrote: | | Every time you do this you have a 21% chance of flopping (assuming both players are skill 4). So, if he's doing it every turn, I can see how the ball would never get anywhere . |
Those odds are meaningless because you are ignoring modifiers. A player with Skill 4, can move next to the next moving player and do a pass, they have a good chance then of giving each other -1 success. Most likely this will be a 1 success on 4 dice roll. 21% chance of flopping?
Fine, for a moment lets say I think your math is accurate...I don't...but lets say I do.
What is the likelihood that that same player will then lose the ball by being tackled because his opponent has two turns to reach him.
Like I said, you can move nearly the length of the pitch in 2 turns. The average jog is 6. So a player who keeps the ball is very likely to be tackled before he can move again...and like you already said, a both down is common and easy to get.
So what is the percentage of losing the ball when you get tackled? I bet it's higher than 21%. 
A mad, Bl00d B0wl like scramble for the ball, only to try to build a Dwarfish cage and march down the pitch is going to get you no place.
You can either adapt and learn a new strategy or go on playing "Random Bounce Around Ball."
Those of us advocating this strategy aren't doing so out of hypothesis. We have been where you are and changed our game. It works.
You have to use momentum, you have to maneuver your players before begin to move the ball, and you have to realize when to break the scrum.
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Tarota
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| Dark Lord wrote: | | Tarota wrote: | | I still average 1.5 hours, although I think that might still be learning curve. It's hard to tell, because the only times I don't flop are when I don't take time to plan: if I ever bother to set up a play, even if it involves a single 4-die roll, it's guaranteed to flop. It's uncanny, I tell you! |
It can seem that way but, just like Bl00d B0wl, you have to learn to minimize your risks. |
If you know of a way to minimize risk more than making a single, 4-die roll, I'd love to hear it. But seriously, I understand I'm dealing low sample numbers here; even the best laid plans are going to fail 1 in 9 times, if there is a single die roll required. I just seem to be getting unlucky on which of the 9 times I'm hitting...
| Dark Lord wrote: | | With no extras you should be running "Pick 10" games. With the basic rules you don't get 12 men, you only get 10. |
Good point, I had missed that. Although as I said we only had one injury, so that still would have left 3 players on the bench.
| Dark Lord wrote: | You should be able to move the ball the length of the field in 2-3 turns.
Is this true for you? |
Nope. I haven't tried setting up a relay the length of the field, though. That would no doubt do it, if I could hit all my handoff rolls. And if my opponent didn't see it coming, and decide to take out the relay man instead of going straight for the ball. It definitely beats my current "run with the ball and hope my opponent flops more than I do" strategy, anyway .
| Dark Lord wrote: | | It sounds like your league desperately needs somebody to unlock the basics, and kick everybody's ass. Then they can copy him. |
What my league desparately needs is a league, instead of a few guys who get together every once in a while.
| Dark Lord wrote: | Those odds are meaningless because you are ignoring modifiers. A player with Skill 4, can move next to the next moving player and do a pass, they have a good chance then of giving each other -1 success. Most likely this will be a 1 success on 4 dice roll. 21% chance of flopping?
Fine, for a moment lets say I think your math is accurate...I don't...but lets say I do. |
That's the beauty of math: you don't have to believe it, you can do it for yourself. And there's a reason I said "flop", and not "fail": there is nothing you can do to reduce the odds of a flop. No number of assists, no amount of momentum, can get around one. You need two rolls to complete a handoff, each with a 11.6% chance of flopping (or 89.4% chance of not flopping, if you prefer). That works out to a 78.1% chance of both rolls not flopping, or 21.9% chance that at least one of them will. Those are decent odds, but not ones I want to string together six times in a row.
| Dark Lord wrote: | Those of us advocating this strategy aren't doing so out of hypothesis. We have been where you are and changed our game. It works.
You have to use momentum, you have to maneuver your players before begin to move the ball, and you have to realize when to break the scrum. |
And I think that's the key part: maneuvering your players before moving the ball. You make it sound like you're handing off the ball at the end of every turn, but I just don't see how that's possible. Taking 6-10 turns where you set up a drive, with just enough ball defense to keep the other guys from scoring: that I'll buy. And it's what I'll try, next time I get a chance...
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Dark Lord
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I think you may be thinking too rigid about it.
Yes, you maneuver your players first...but it isn't about setting up relay races. It's about zones of control.
When I play, if I lose the face off...which I do a lot because I tend to put a low might, high skill player in the circle, I do not go after the ball. Most opponents will take the ball and move it to their own backfield, rather than move into enemy territory unprotected.
So after their first turn I begin advancing my offensive squad into his turf. I usually use 4 player for my offense. Step one is to secure the middle of the field. One of my Offensive guys is already there (most likely) from the face off. The other members of the squad can reach there in one turn because I try to use a mix of Midfielders and Strikers (or equivalent). I keep this group pretty tight.
No matter what my opponent choses to do with the ball I don't change my tactics. My goal is to control the middle of the field, not to secure the ball.
Once I feel like I have the middle I can push my players a little deeper into his turf. At this point, if the ball is still in his backfield I push toward it...again, I don't necessarily go after him with the intent to tackle and scoop up the ball. I prefer to place my players to increase that 21% to something a bit more intimidating. Let him fail the rolls, I'll clean up.
But I keep the same mentality at my goal hex too. I don't try to tackle him most of the time. I try to make him fail the pass/catch...or the pick up.
Another thing I like to do is when I control the middle, if he tries to go around my guys I shove him...a lot. If you shove the ball carrier out of bounds while you control the middle you're gonna get the ball right where you want it.
And like I have said repeatedly, shoves in this game rule. If I need to remove a tackle zone, I shove. If I need to build momentum, I shove.
Even if I want to remove a player and he's close enough to the edge I shove! Remember, conrtolling the correct zones can force your opponent to move too close to the edge.
For me to tackle an opponent he must be a direct threat to one of my players, or my strategy and there isn't a way to get the same result with a shove. And when I do tackle him, I try to build momentum first, and make sure I have somebody next to him to keep him down, if I don't injure him.
But most of the time the effect you want can be achieved by a shove instead of a tackle.
And as for the math. Sure, it's correct but it isn't right. You're looking at it all wrong. There's a lot of variables you are forgetting. And to be perfectly honest, you are actually forgetting that a failed pass that isn't caught is an effective Flop. So it could be even more difficult.
But it still is more likely that you will lose the ball if you don't attempt it.
IT ISN'T fantasy football. Passing is supposed to be hard, quick dump offs at close range are the way to go.
Call it 21% if that lets you sleep at night...Elfball is more fluid than you are allowing it be tho. Trying to calculate the odds is silly, because as I said...you may fail 1 out of every 5 hand offs...but I bet you lose the ball 4 out of every 5 times you keep it.
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Cephalopod
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So far they've taken between 45 and 60 minutes, but we had one outlier that lasted an hour and a half since the flops were coming fast and furious and neither player was capable of getting the ball much past the halfway mark.
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bouncergriim
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[quote="Dark Lord"]
I would love to get something going in vassal because you have to be doing something wrong here.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | 4 hours for ONE score?! . |
Yes four total hours.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | How many players per team?. |
We played advanced rules 10-11 per team plus kegs and potions (I had 11 + two kegs and a potion) opponent had max kegs potions and a cheerleader 10 players.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | How many on the pitch at one time?. |
6 per rules
| Dark Lord wrote: | | Using Reserves?. |
yep
| Dark Lord wrote: | | How many injuries did you have?. |
Lots of knock downs, but not so many injuries at first (slowly attrition got me, then he pushed my last two out of bounds rather than go for the ball) at one point all but two of the 10 players were down, but not injured.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | How often are you rolling for pushes rather than tackles?. |
Nearly tackled every turn, except when I thought ball handling was critical. Every time one of us would get close to the goal an unattended player would tackle the ball carrier
| Dark Lord wrote: | | How often are you ending your turn without handing off the ball?. |
Generally, if we couldn't hand of we would dump it somewhere to make our opponent choose ball or tackle.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | But like Tom said, I don't see how you could go four hours without removing enough players to make scoring easier. |
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GalakStarscraper
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hmmmmmm .... very interesting.
Not sure how best to process all of the feedback but it is greatly appreciated.
Galak
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Dark Lord
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| Dark Lord wrote: | | How many injuries did you have?. |
| bouncergriim wrote: | | Lots of knock downs, but not so many injuries at first (slowly attrition got me, then he pushed my last two out of bounds rather than go for the ball) at one point all but two of the 10 players were down, but not injured. |
Something feels wrong here. In four hours, using momentum and assists I can't understand how you didn't have more injuries. Possible that it has to do with the question below.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | How often are you rolling for pushes rather than tackles?. |
| bouncergriim wrote: | | Nearly tackled every turn, except when I thought ball handling was critical. Every time one of us would get close to the goal an unattended player would tackle the ball carrier |
This seems to be the thing that has changed the most in our league. Its a Bl00d B0wl trait that hangs around...possibly longer than others in my estimation. As I have said, Pushing is way more effective in Elfball than a tackle. Tackles often end up with both down, and therefore waste Jog points.
And in a game where field position is so critical Shoving is a vital tool that shouldn't be ignored. You will achieve the same effect as a tackle and have far more players on their feet...especially if your opponent decides to go with Tackling.
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Tarota
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| Dark Lord wrote: | | Something feels wrong here. In four hours, using momentum and assists I can't understand how you didn't have more injuries. |
I haven't had much luck with assists and tackling, which I guess leads to a question. If the target number of successes (Dodge - 2 - offensive assists etc) is less than 1, it gets adjusted up to 1 before you look at the results table, right? So, if the target was -2, you would still need 4 successes to get an unmodified injury roll?
That means 3 successes are required to get any injury rolls at all, even if all six of your guys team up on a single target. That many successes is pretty unlikely, except on the turns you get some momentum built up.
| Dark Lord wrote: | | As I have said, Pushing is way more effective in Elfball than a tackle. Tackles often end up with both down, and therefore waste Jog points. |
My demo teams are Dwarves and Divine Wind at the moment. (That's what I have painted...) The Dwarves do a lot of shoving, but with their low dodge scores are often the target of tackles themselves.
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Dark Lord
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Divine Wind has to roll an Impact challenge against a Dwarf. That should limit the number of tackles that can affect them.
As far as momentum and tackling.
I don't tackle unless I have momentum. It's just that simple.
More importantly, I don't tackle unless I need the player off the pitch and I can't shove him across an out of bounds line.
If I simply need his modifier off of my player I Shove him. Same result, but more likely to succeed. And if I do commit to Tackle, I try to build up momentum first, if I can't or it's risky momentum I use my cheerleaders.
If I need 1 success and I have 3 or 4 dice plus 3 or 4 momentum, I can get an injury when I need it.
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Tarota
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| Dark Lord wrote: | | Divine Wind has to roll an Impact challenge against a Dwarf. That should limit the number of tackles that can affect them. |
Not the sumos . As for everyone else, yes, they have to make an Impact challenge. That's often exactly as difficult as a Shove challenge, though. And if you get an assist, you're likely to get some momentum out of the deal, which you can now turn into an assisted tackle without burning jog to follow up on the shove.
I'm not saying you're always going to want to tackle. Just against Dwarves...
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Dark Lord
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Totally and 100% disagree.
A likely result of a Tackle is both down, regardless of Impact challenge. With a shove you aren't going down unless you flop.
Not only that but a Shove and an Impact challenge are equal...but the Impact Challenge requires you to roll again...that's a second chance for a flop, a second roll to soak up momentum, and a higher likelihood that you will need to then roll a Get Up challenge.
Even against a Might 4 player I will still attempt a Shove rather than a Tackle if all I need is to remove his modifier from the action.
You're saying that to move a Might 4 player's tackle zone off of your player instead of rolling a Shove challenge you would rather roll an Impact (equal to a shove),and then roll a Tackle, risking a result that comes up with no result or your player down?
Not me.
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Tarota
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Another 90+ minute test tonight, although I'd be willing to blame this one on die rolls. We had one run of 4 flops in 6 turns, I flopped three straight dump-off passes with a Striker... it was a stunning display of die rolling, it really was. I'm going to have to start keeping a log sheet, honestly. It wasn't all bad rolls: my Terrorpin got taken out of the game by an unassisted tackle from a Hunter, for instance. But overall, it was comedy of errors all the way.
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