Ewan
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Ideas needed for 'near future/post apocalypse' gameLooking at the other post about this, it appears that there's a general consensus for near future/post apocalypse type game to be made.
I'd be interested in what the creative type members on this forum can come up with (as a future side project for Impact!)
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Bodhi
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Location for all games: One city
Drugdealers: Demonlords
Saviours of the tormented planet: Elves
Elves who can't cope with the responisbility and turn to drugs: Darkelves (Get increasingly ensnared in the webs of intrigue spun by the demonlords)
Guardians and tunnelbuilders in the citydump (building stuff from scrap): Dwarves
Dwellers of the city sewers: Goblins.
The Goblins form small "clan-groups" and are cineasts forming a form of quasireligion based around a certain movie - so we get "The Clockwork gang" whose leader is called Alex, the "Godfathers" and so on. You get the picture.
Contested areas: The watercleaning plant (close to the garbage dump) A reason for many wars fought between the Dwarves and the goblins
The rooftops: Home for the elves living in buildings "grown" from plants. Loads of hanging bridges across the streets. Under constant attck by the darkelves.
The sewers: where Darkelves and goblins fight over living territory
That sums up a sketch I did long ago on the subject. In that world the humans had abandoned a polluted world and left for elsewhere, allowing the "Old races" to come forth from hiding, but that could allways be changed.
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Ewan
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Ok, sounds good enough so far mate.
With your permission can others comment/tweak things on this thread until we have a playtestable ruleset etc?
I like the idea of based in one city - Kinda reminds me (in a strange way) of Frank Millers "Sin City" 
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Ewan
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| Hoomin_Erra wrote: |
Nuclear spill near the zoo, or into the sewers results in mutated animals. (Ratz cows, etc.) |
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Ewan
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"Left behinds" Humans who never made it 'off planet'. They hold a resentment to all the 'new' races that have sprung up.
"The Boneyard" - Scrapyard/cemetary. The only place that is considered neutral territory to everyone. Ruled/enforced by the undead.
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Ewan
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| Bodhi wrote: |
Feel free. I've allways liked group efforts
Of course the darkelves would rationalize their failure as "progress" and declare their deeper fall into depravation as "progress to a higher state" - That would be the basis for their beliefs. |
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Bodhi
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| Ewan wrote: | "Left behinds" Humans who never made it 'off planet'. They hold a resentment to all the 'new' races that have sprung up.
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Could be based on the archetypical "survivalist". Living in underground bunkers and heavily armed with comparatively high tech equipment compared to the other races. Some can be "cleaning up patrols" trying to rid the world of the newer races.
Ogres, trolls and orcs would be more "outsiders" to the city world. Normally living nomadic lives out on the plains they sometimes attack the factions of the city on raids. (not my idea. I had this up on the "Dicetroll" forum and one of the mods "Scorp" came up with it)
Lesser demons would sometimes be rather unthrustworthy allies with the darkelves (could be reflected by a simple die roll. Over a certain number they do as the player wishes. Under that number they just do something random that may well be damaging to the player himself) while the greater demons are rarely seen, preferring to work from behind the stage.
I like the idea of balancing strong figures through making them a "double edged sword". That's much how magic worked in the old "Stormbringer" game. You constantly had to fight for control over magical items and if you lost they may well have turned against you.
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Chairface
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| Ewan wrote: | | I like the idea of based in one city - Kinda reminds me (in a strange way) of Frank Millers "Sin City" |
Call it something like "Vice Burg" 
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Bodhi
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I couldn't resist making a quickie sketchsculp of one of the garbage dump dwarfs (and an even quicker picture. I've taken about 50 pics of my footballplayer now but still none that is good enough in case you wonder why I haven't been updating). Only the nude pose so far. I'm thinking a bit comicy style exaggeration while not going to the lengths of "head with feet on" that is typical for warhammer dwarfs. So I'd be happy to hear what you think of the general design idea:
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Hoomin_erra
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That actually looks quite promising mate.
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Bodhi
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I have quite a few friends in "The short peoples society of Stockholm". That's a bonus I guess 
Didn't have a live model for this though...
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Ewan
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kinda reminds me of a "Galaxy Quest" (movie) race...
Little guys - looked cute but were mean
I realise the sketch (nice by the way) has not been clothed etc and will look different if finished. I was just commenting on what was there so far
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Bodhi
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Been wanting to sculpt those guys since I saw that film . They're lovely aren't they?
I have an idea involving teletubbies in friendly dinner over a human corpse that was inspired by them...
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Bodhi
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A bit more postapocalyptic now?
Forgot to mention size by the way: 22 mm from soles of feet to top of head.
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IronAge_Man
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Keep the guns to a minimum, or effective only at short range, or with long reload times. It means individual pieces don't necessarily need a gun. It makes for more varied weapons and tactics.
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Chairface
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Freaking awesome Bodhi!
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Bodhi
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| IronAge_Man wrote: | | Keep the guns to a minimum, or effective only at short range, or with long reload times. It means individual pieces don't necessarily need a gun. It makes for more varied weapons and tactics. |
I was thinking shotgun as the peak of technology. So that should fit the "short range and long reload times" shouldn't it?
I really know very very little about guns.
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IronAge_Man
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My thoughts exactly - plus shotties are cool...
I think about this game idea in the same way as flight sims - you want dog-fights, not long-range pot shots.
Standardised methods of ranged, close combat (inc. bare handed), explosive, chemical and gaseous(!) attacks means it would be a highly portable, cross-genre ruleset.
For speed, use tiles or hexes - nothing like getting out a regular inch ruler to slow the play to a turgid crawl - or else make a special movement range ruler. Ranged attacks could also use some sort of range ruler, maybe even different markings on the same one - mmm, I like that idea.
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Darkson
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And it's got to have Chainsaws!!! 
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Bodhi
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| IronAge_Man wrote: | My thoughts exactly - plus shotties are cool...
I think about this game idea in the same way as flight sims - you want dog-fights, not long-range pot shots.
Standardised methods of ranged, close combat (inc. bare handed), explosive, chemical and gaseous(!) attacks means it would be a highly portable, cross-genre ruleset.
For speed, use tiles or hexes - nothing like getting out a regular inch ruler to slow the play to a turgid crawl - or else make a special movement range ruler. Ranged attacks could also use some sort of range ruler, maybe even different markings on the same one - mmm, I like that idea. |
Started on a female dwarf. She is armed with molotov cocktails . Throwing one, a few bottles and ripped up pieces of clothing (for dipping in the gasoline) about her body. I really like the "lowtech" weapons best.
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fen
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| IronAge_Man wrote: | | For speed, use tiles or hexes - nothing like getting out a regular inch ruler to slow the play to a turgid crawl |
If you're going to pick one of those, go with Hexes/Octos. Being able to move in more than 4 directions (without crazy diaganol moves that are far longer than the other two) is just better mechanically and ascethically.
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Bodhi
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| Darkson wrote: | | And it's got to have Chainsaws!!! |
Of course. EVERYTHING looks better with a chainsaw. My mum did a two month course in chainsaw maintenance (It was one of those "try to hide the open unemployment through disguising it with courses for the unemployed" thingys...)
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IronAge_Man
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| fen wrote: | | IronAge_Man wrote: | | For speed, use tiles or hexes - nothing like getting out a regular inch ruler to slow the play to a turgid crawl |
If you're going to pick one of those, go with Hexes/Octos. Being able to move in more than 4 directions (without crazy diaganol moves that are far longer than the other two) is just better mechanically and ascethically. |
Agreed - hexagons work better because they fit together with no gaps. Unfortunately, they'll never pass for flagstones (not that a post-apocolyptic game would have flagstones).
For the non-tiled method, I envisaged a 3D movement range ruler last night, were a ruler with slots cut into it would have moveable perpendicular 'range limit' barriers fitted into the slots. You fix a range barrier into the appropriate slot for a character's MV, plop it down edgeways next to the mini (he begins in the 'start' position, which would also have a barrier), and you quickly move him up to his range limit. Using the barriers means no arguments over stealing extra millimetres.
The only snag would be the ruler or it's barriers snagging on scenery and thus refusing to sit on the playing surface properly. I suppose it would be made of flexible polycarbonate (I'm thinking of the B.B. Pass ruler here), which could be bent round corners.
How you'd manage movement up stairs or in buildings, I've no idea - maybe the rulebook could have a convention based on space available and vertical distance to be covered - a character could not move so fast in an enclosed space, at least when going round corners.
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Torpor
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So far it sounds like Shadowrun meets Mordheim/Necromunda... which isn't a bad thing, but what's the hook? What gets me as a theoretical customer to get me playing this game and not Rackham, Grandma Wendy, Privateer Press, etc?
Okay, besides the cool miniatures?
How about this slant?
Each gang comes with a scenario and a map.
For example - Goblins come their ruined cinema or BlockBuster map. If you have just purchased the goblin group by itself then you have a mini brawl game in the cinema amongst the goblins themselves. As goblins come in larger numbers than say elves, this works as you have either a nice, large goblin gang to play vs other races or you have enough minis to play that brawl.
The Undead come with the graveyard setting and a 'Hero' character or two and you can play the heroes trying to recover the magic boomstick (shotgun) and escape as the zombies try to swarm them. As shotguns are rare, those who have another set will want this set. They would want it not only for the Undead, cool as they are, but for that guy that they could add to their original gang with the great shotgun.
So, each gang or group comes as a standalone game if you want it at that level. However if you own more than one, they can be combined to make larger games. That way parents can be talked into purchasing 'a complete game' for their children. Later after the novelty of playing 'that game' wears off, they can purchase another 'complete game' which has the added value of combining with the first game and making a larger third game. The more gangs/games you purchase the more possibilities you have to play.
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Ewan
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Inspired idea there mate - I really like that take on things.
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Bodhi
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It would also work well to combine with the "custom base and backdrop" idea I had.
Of course for the avid collector figures as stand alone pieces could be available to.
I reread it. That truly is an amazingly BRILLIANT idea! Interconnecting maps along with the figures (much as in the dungeons and dragons boardgame) could be the "cheap" version and then corresponding 3-D terrainpieces and walls could be upgrade for those wanting to take it a step further
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Dark Lord
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Would be fun to have it be a Space Hulk/Leagions of Steel/Zombies!!! type game. Though this would probably mean tiles over hexes. But IMO this is the one area where tiles are superior. Hero Quest just made diagonal moves count as 2 squares instead of one. (easy and workable imo).
Modular board also would make downloading easy and make it compatable with games listed above.
And maze-like corridors would give it that cramped urban atmosphere, and limit the effectivemess of problematic ranged weapons.
Plus you could rip off one of my all time favorite weapons from Legions of Steel...the Force Wall Grenade!
The FWG creates a force field in one square at the end of the thrower's turn. Not only does it block the square off from missle attacks and walking through it...it crushes anyone standing in that square!! Man that was fun!
I miss the old days of modular dungeon crawl/squad war type games. I think that's why Doom is doing so well.
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mlindsay2706
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id seriously love a post apocalypse game, like a hell hole of a city, soemthing like necromunda but not so good texchnology with races
so far im really liking the sound of this. agree that too many guns could spoil it, shotgun seems cool though. chainsaws are a must imo 
deamons would be cool. flying ones that fly up attack the rooftop elves maybe?
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Dark Lord
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And Cyborks!! Needs to have Cyborks!!!
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mlindsay2706
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ok so thinking map wise...who'd have what?
and what races do we have here?
ok we seem to have-
elvessses:grin:
dark elvesses
goblins
dwarves
humies
undead
deamons
i miss any?
ok the city has three major levels - lower level, street level, rooftop level. lower is sewer level. rooftops could be devided into two sections to - lower rooftops eg lower floors and the higher rooftops which are the actual rooftops.
and surley the city would have major areas? so far ive heard of a scrap yard. cemetery for the undead maybe? city hall for th good elves?
remember its all ruined, derlict, wasted land, so places like the city hall would be central and have good places for the elves as it would probably be very high up etc..
if i get enough info i could sketch an idea for a map up? just thoughts
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Dark Lord
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| mlindsay2706 wrote: | | ok so thinking map wise...who'd have what? |
I'd vote for tiles if it were to be a claustrophobic corridor fighting type game. I think a fun type of game would be to have the battle taking place in old burnt out buildings or skyscrapers. Then you could have three smaller maps representing 3 levels. (Perhaps with holes or weak spots in the floors for jumping or falling.
If it's to be open areas in an outdoor or arena setting my vote is for hexes.
| mlindsay2706 wrote: | and what races do we have here?
ok we seem to have-
elvessses:grin:
dark elvesses
goblins
dwarves
humies
undead
deamons
i miss any? |
If this is to be Post Apocalyptic I'd say...
Elves should be aliens. Dark Elves could be the bad aliens.
Goblins and Orcs should be warring with Dwarfs over the Junk Yards and scrap. (With lots of cybernetics and crazy weapons)
Humans are humans.
Undead should be the classic Terminator/Skelebot/Necron/Cylon type thing.
And demons...I'd rather see this as an off shoot of humans in the form of Cult fanatics and/or possessed.
Bloodthirsters, Chaos Warriors, and Plague Bearers need to stay in the Warhammer verse.
| mlindsay2706 wrote: | ok the city has three major levels - lower level, street level, rooftop level. lower is sewer level. rooftops could be devided into two sections to - lower rooftops eg lower floors and the higher rooftops which are the actual rooftops.
and surley the city would have major areas? so far ive heard of a scrap yard. cemetery for the undead maybe? city hall for th good elves?
remember its all ruined, derlict, wasted land, so places like the city hall would be central and have good places for the elves as it would probably be very high up etc.. |
Whatever the prize is that they are fighting over (the Warpstone if you will) should be in a maze like place (like abandoned buildings, subways, and caves). But even more fun should be scenarios. If you are going with the each race has its own map then I say each map should come with 3 or 4 scenarios. (Disguised variants on old classics like Hide and Seek, Capture the flag, King of the Hill and good old Fragging) For example, The Dwarfs are fighting with the Orcs and Gobs in the maze like Junkyards. They discover there is something valuable in the center of the yard. Each camp (on either side of the yard) is trying to reach the prize(s) and take it/them back to their home base. Just an example.
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Bodhi
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[quote="Dark Lord"] | mlindsay2706 wrote: |
If this is to be Post Apocalyptic I'd say...
Elves should be aliens. Dark Elves could be the bad aliens.
Undead should be the classic Terminator/Skelebot/Necron/Cylon type thing.
And demons...I'd rather see this as an off shoot of humans in the form of Cult fanatics and/or possessed.
Bloodthirsters, Chaos Warriors, and Plague Bearers need to stay in the Warhammer verse.
. |
I'm sorry but I just have to protest most vehemently against elves as aliens
1. It's an old (and from the start bad) idea (To much Däniken for a start)
2. Elves are the oldest race. Older than humans and because of that are more attuned to the voice of nature
Inherently "Bad" or "evil" are american movie concepts with little or no basis in reality. I would prefer to avoid them all together. People with good intentions but a corrupted sense of right and wrong due to inherent psychological weaknesses are so much more interesting. And that's where the darkelves should land.
Same goes for inherently "good" beings. No such thing, in my humble opinion.
Demons I'd imagine as corruptors of the darkelves. Never figuring directly in the action. At the most their minions would figure. Never the higher demons.
The way I imagine the world it is very much connected to folklore but with added SF elements, not in any way to either Shadowrun nor Necromunda nor anything done by Grandma Wendy.
Same should go for the undead I feel. Zombies based on Haitian beliefs, not on Romero films, Vampires with roots in transylvanian folklore, Ghouls as the arabs originally imagined them and so forth.
Making these characters with a firm root in the original folkloric concepts of those beings would make it much more of a fresh concept than going with anything resembling modern fantasy or science fiction.
So it would be more like "All beings in fairytales and folklore stories are true EXACTLY as told (no aliens or anything) but they went dormant and come back once humans have abandoned the planet"
Just my thoughts on the matter
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Dark Lord
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After you said Good and Evil were American movie concepts I stopped reading.
Good and Evil (especially as it pertains to demons) can be traced back to Zorastrianism...about 6000 BCE. And probably longer ago than that but Ahriman is probably the first entity to be labeled as evil incarnate.
It wasn't invented in Hollywood. 
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Bodhi
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Oh I know about zoroastrian duality no worries about that. Please!
That's not what I'm attacking - but I feel that such a concept is rather boring compared to the more shady greys. Especially as pertains to denizens of the fairie world. They've traditionally allways dwelt in the shady areas in between.
I have no problem with DEMONS being completely and helplessly evil as that's sort of the function for them.
I DO have problems with humans (or humanlike beings) being declared as inherently evil. Zoroastrianism makes the CHOICE most important. The idea that HUMANS are PREDESTINED to good or evil is a point that was pressed strongly in Calvinism though but not in Zoroastrianism. And this way of viewing good and evil is the dominant one in Hollywood films, he's evil BECAUSE he's evil kind of thing.
Please read the rest if that's OK for you. That was the important part. Discussions on good and evil have been going on for more than 10 000 years as you've allready pointed out, and haven't come to a conclusion yet
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Dark Lord
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| Bodhi wrote: | I have no problem with DEMONS being completely and helplessly evil as that's sort of the function for them.
I DO have problems with humans (or humanlike beings) being declared as inherently evil. Zoroastrianism makes the CHOICE most important.
Please read the rest if that's OK for you. |
So how does this differ from what I suggested.
If you want it to be a grey area and all about choice with black and white definitions left out, how does it clash with having demons be represented more as possessed humans? Or fanatical cult members?
| Quote: | | People with good intentions but a corrupted sense of right and wrong due to inherent psychological weaknesses are so much more interesting. |
I don't see how Cults or Possesed don't represent this view.
I mean this is a miniature game, not an RPG. How are you going to delve into the psyche of a member of the squad?
Yes I wrote the words good and bad, but they were in quotes that didn't denote any inherentness in the qualities. So whether they are fighting against the law to save their crippled mothers or doing it cuz its fun really doesn't matter. I was only suggesting that one be at odds with the other.
Your list is interesting (though I gotta say Romero zombies are gonna sell more minis than Haitian ones. I mean one type is gonna be obvious as to what they are and allow a myriad of proxies. Minis for the Haitian zombies are going to make people ask , "Why is this mini just standing here with a blank expression?"
IMO the best way to avoid the Romero zombie is to make them racial. Make only one or two human ones and the rest should be Dwarf, Elf and Orc.
Besides in a SF world undead should be robots. Make the fluff say that they are actually human brians deep down in there but nobody knows it if that thrills you more but your vision doesn't sound very sci-fi to me.
You said "with Sci-fi elements" what did you have in mind? And how are these races dealing with the apocalypse?
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Dark Lord
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Revised:
I think the fluff I'd create would be less Shadowrun's "Return of Magick" and more evolution.
It be cool to say that Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins etc came from the human remnant and radioactive fall out. The humans living rustic existences in the back woods evolved into Elves and lead a campaign to bring back mother nature and reseed the Earth. Dark Elves could be more agressive versions that use tech and bio weapons to try to jump start the process. Dwarves could be the leftovers who grew up underground in tunnels and shelters and are fascinated with old technology and of course GOLD! (Maybe this could be Black Gold!) Orcs and Gobbos could be the the results of DNA experimentation by the Dark Elves.
And Undead could be some sort of left over human war machine carrying out some ancient and obtuse order.
Demons could actually be left as a mystery. Some threat whispered about but seldom seen. An NPC if you will, that shows up in one or two scenarios and causes random mayhem.
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White Elk's Peyote Rattle
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"Making these characters with a firm root in the original folkloric concepts of those beings would make it much more of a fresh concept than going with anything resembling modern fantasy or science fiction. "
Just wanted to point out a Truism:
"modern fantasy or science fiction" -is- Folklore...and something Older is not necessarily 'Fresher' (although cross-cultural mining can be , 'struth!)
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mlindsay2706
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ok, so im thinking of doing some concept art. im not a master at drawing but if i can get my scanner to work i could post some ideas 
so undead/zombies...always fun. what would we have?
straight normal zombies? ie. undead people rotting corpses raised from the ground?
or necron-style dudes, rotting flesh, with cybork parts?
and the human topic, couldnt we have good humies n bad humies? maybe even 'grey' area guys, who arent deffo evil but not completey good either. people who just protect themslves and no one else maybe? pherhaps different cults/factions to show that some humans are evil, some good etc... depending on their faction.
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Bodhi
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| White Elk's Peyote Rattle wrote: | "Just wanted to point out a Truism:
"modern fantasy or science fiction" -is- Folklore...and something Older is not necessarily 'Fresher' (although cross-cultural mining can be , 'struth!) |
Agreed. And it's because of that that it would pay to go back to the roots and make our own version of those roots instead of glancing at Tolkien or any other persons interpretation of them. I'm not suggesting sticking slavishly to original folkloric concepts (they're hardly consistant anyway) but to use these as a basis for working out something fresh. As soon as we start glancing at others interpretations we become more stuck in certain paths of thinking.
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Dark Lord
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I'll agree with this...
Although I would like to say that to ignore what is popular isn't wise either.
The best bet would be a blend of the two.
Start someplace the people know and then drive them to someplace new that knocks their socks off.
Though I have to admit I am enamored with the idea that Man left the planet but forgot to turn off his machines.
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Bodhi
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Concerning the fluff that I posted:
I have never seen or read any gamefluff or rules made by Grandma Wendy. Not because I hate them or anything. I have just NEVER played ANY game of that type. I used to do roleplaying about twenty years ago. Now I sculpt and only that. I don't play, I don't collect miniatures and I don't paint.
It is possible that one who is very much into Grandma Wendy would read a lot more of Grandma Wendy into the idea from such a brief description as this. Perhaps a fuller description will clarify things a bit.
Though I most definitely admit to having NO experience in gamedesign either
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MusedFable
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| Bodhi wrote: | Concerning the fluff that I posted:
I have never seen or read any gamefluff or rules made by Grandma Wendy. Not because I hate them or anything. I have just NEVER played ANY game of that type. I used to do roleplaying about twenty years ago. Now I sculpt and only that. I don't play, I don't collect miniatures and I don't paint.
It is possible that one who is very much into Grandma Wendy would read a lot more of Grandma Wendy into the idea from such a brief description as this. Perhaps a fuller description will clarify things a bit. |
Tolkien. Grandma Wendy. Same thing. Evil guys, elves, orcs, dwarves, ect. Your examples could be played by just using Grandma Wendy miniatures. You could also play D&D with Grandma Wendy miniatures, so it's not a crime against humanity or anything. I just think it's tired and boring
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Ewan
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Ah crap, I split MF's posts and screwed it up 
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Torpor
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MusedFable-
Don't worry about it. Your thoughts are fairly coherent.
The breakdown as I see it is (not necessarily in any order):
Figure out an underlying system of mechanics.
Figure out 'Fluff'
Figure out the market.
Only problem that I can see with Mused Fable's theme is that it appears to be awfully close to Doomtown's background. (Wierd Wild West theme), Castle Falkenstein or Space 1889 (Victorian Age Aether travel... meeting Barsoomian Martians, etc). All were great games, but how can this be made into something uniquely Impact!'s ?
How about a "Men in Black" meets Steampunk in the 17th Century?
Agency of humans (mad scientists, gadget freaks and Doc Savage types) take on all sorts of oddball gangs/situations in an alternate Three Musketeers timeframe, whilst trying to keep knowledge of all the creepy-crawlies secret from 'normal' society.
-Little Green Men (aliens with technology from the Future!)
-Red booted malevolent gnomes (fairy power)
-Cultists/Demons (calling upon the forces of Eeeevil)
-Goblins in the mines
-Cardinal Richelieu and his guardsmen
and so on.
It isn't post apocalyptic though...
and what sort of games would you like to make with the concept?
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Dark Lord
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Well the thing is that if you want this be in a specific genre you'll have to "rip off" somebody that came before you. I dont' see how else you can do it.
And if you're talking about creating a new genre....well that's not exactly easy is it?
I hate to say (God really I hate it) but if you want a market you should probably stick to an established genre...
HOWEVER! That doesn't mean just clonging what has come before.
Star Wars and Flash Gordon are in the same genre but very different things. One inspired the other but its not readily apparent. You could remake Star Wars in black and white with shiney ray guns and perfectly clean vehicles etc and it would have been a very different movie.
And just think about it like this...Flash Gordon > Star Wars > Alien > Predator > Alien vs. Predator comics...Now who would link AVP comics to Flash Gordon? But there is very definite link.
Describing ideas that fit into a specific genre in a single post on a message board has the inherent problem of limiting descriptions.
Please do not just assume because I or anyone say, "Do something similar to Grandma Wendy/FASA/Fantasy Flight Games etc." that we mean copy them exactly.
I think most people are just trying to paint pictures in your head.
Here's the cold hard facts...
A game with a totally new genre is not only going to be harder to design it's going to be a bigger gamble.
Putting tons of effort into making a completely original fantasy world that doesn't resemble ANYTHING that has come before it takes time and effort away from what is really important. The mechanics. Pretty picture but crappy game play will only sell so many games...plus it will make future attempts that much harder.
Just because the wording of the fluff resembles Shadowrun (which IMO is not an overdone genre at all) doesn't mean the minis, the game board, or the pictures will. I think Shadowrun is a good place to look for inspiration.
It's not an overdone genre, it has a loyal following and adding a post-apocalyptic theme to the Shadowrun idea already takes it a step away from being labled a clone.
Throw in some of Bodhi's flavor and you're talking something pretty unique.
Just saying, don't be so afraid of looking to other popular games, movies, TV, books, and comics for inspiration.
(Besides if I could come up with a totally new genre unlike anything seen before...I wouldn't give to you lot for free so you could waste it on a boardgame!! )
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MusedFable
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| Ewan wrote: | | Ah crap, I split MF's posts and screwed it up |
Oh, sure
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Ewan
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Ask about, you'll see what the others say.
Honest.
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MusedFable
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| Torpor wrote: | MusedFable-
Don't worry about it. Your thoughts are fairly coherent.
The breakdown as I see it is (not necessarily in any order):
Figure out an underlying system of mechanics.
Figure out 'Fluff'
Figure out the market.
Only problem that I can see with Mused Fable's theme is that it appears to be awfully close to Doomtown's background. (Wierd Wild West theme), Castle Falkenstein or Space 1889 (Victorian Age Aether travel... meeting Barsoomian Martians, etc). All were great games, but how can this be made into something uniquely Impact!'s ?
How about a "Men in Black" meets Steampunk in the 17th Century?
Agency of humans (mad scientists, gadget freaks and Doc Savage types) take on all sorts of oddball gangs/situations in an alternate Three Musketeers timeframe, whilst trying to keep knowledge of all the creepy-crawlies secret from 'normal' society.
-Little Green Men (aliens with technology from the Future!)
-Red booted malevolent gnomes (fairy power)
-Cultists/Demons (calling upon the forces of Eeeevil)
-Goblins in the mines
-Cardinal Richelieu and his guardsmen
and so on.
It isn't post apocalyptic though...
and what sort of games would you like to make with the concept? |
I've never read Doomtown, Falkenstein, or Space 1889. I stole from Lovecraft, Hellboy, Wells, and real history.
The six factions I posted where just conglomerations and groupings of everything I could find. It's more of a kitchen sink than anything.
BTW, I never said do something completely new. I don't know if that's being read into my posts (if they ever come back ). I was just pointing out that it was really similar to Grandma Wendy, and making something very similar to what you're going to be competing with isn't normally a good idea if they are a bajillion times larger than you are. Coke and Pepsi can do it, but Dr. Pepper just dose it's own thing so it doesn't get crushed.
Impact can't make volume or supply a large audience, so creating a high quality niche product is the best strategy. Play to your strengths.
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MusedFable
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Okay I dug through my history and found my posts. I'll copy and past them back in as one giant post.
I spend more time designing and ripping apart games than is probably healthy, so how can I resist giving my two cents.
I don’t know what the specific goal of this topic is, and I don’t know how input is processed or how this game will be made. I guess only Ewan could answer that. I’m assuming this is just a random thought thread, and nothing is guaranteed or even expected to come of it. Here are some thing I have to say even before I get into the game.
The worst thing that could happen is design by comity. The second worst thing is not knowing why or how you’re going to get it done. Somebody needs to answer: Why is this game being made?; and Who is designing it? Those decisions get made by whoever is investing into the project. Then you need to figure out marketing, and all the business things. A game is formed more on budgets and audience size then anything else.
Lets assume you figured out the how’s, why’s, and what-for’s. Then you’ll need somebody to make the game. There are lot’s of different elements of games that no one person is likely to be good at. Gameplay and Art direction are rarely made by the same person. Games with good gameplay and bad theme hopefully keep a fan base long enough to have the fans effect the art into a better direction. Games with bad gameplay and good theme hopefully keep a fan base long enough to have the fans playtest the game so much they inevitably find all the gameplay flaws and fix them. If neither the theme or gameplay sparks interest you end up with a waste of money; though it’s hard to tell that before you release it. Only a rare few games have both, or even achieve both.
My impression so for is this topic is just a thought exercise. Thousands of these things are posted online every day. But, since you guys at Impact seem to be capable of actually producing results I’ve taken the time to write this long-winded blathering. I know I sound pompous, but that’s just confidence in myself. I’ve spend way to much time learning everything there is to know about game design, so I’ve grown a rather thick and lumpy skin and most take that as egotism. I’d also like to point out that anything I say is only an attempt to give constructive criticism.
There are two sides to making a game; Theme and Mechanics. They need to be strong alone and combined.
So far we’ve got Post Apocalyptic. Nice familiar theme that hasn’t been done lately.
The next suggestions where Demonlords, Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Humans, and Undead. Holy-GWripoff-batman. Didn’t you forget the Forrest Elves, Vampires, ect.
Why are you making a Grandma Wendy rip-off? Wouldn’t you want to actually make something of your own? We all have dreams of how to “fix” all of our favorite games and make something “better” but the same.
Think outside the Grandma Wendy box. You don’t need any of that as a crutch. I’m sure you are all creative people. You don’t need to fall back on what’s already been done.
Besides the fact it’s not clever or fresh. Think of the marketing and appeal. Who is this game for, and why don’t they just go buy Mordheim instead? If you directly compete with the largest manufacturer then you should at least relies that’s what you’re doing. Stop trying to make a new game and go make some house rules to your favorite Grandma Wendy game. No-need to reinvent the wheel when a little moding will get you what you want.
Now besides the Grandma Wendy idea stealing there are a few unique ideas hiding in there. Torper brought up specific level design. This is a brilliant idea that’s been lacking in miniature game for far to long. Boardgames, videogames, and wargames have used this with success for a long time. Bodhi has a few more great ideas. “Custome base and backdrop” appealing to collectors, and tiered production qualities are wonderful ideas.
Next post is on Theme.
I’ve separated this into a different post for ease of reading and to help quantify my thoughts. This post is just my opinion. My last post outlined my thoughts on how games are designed. This post is just me blurting out ideas.
Post-Apocalyptic: An old idea. It needs something new added. It seems everybody (including me) loves fantasy in there world. Why not start with fantasy then add the world shattering event? Second, why does it have to be in the future. We all want low-tech so why not place it back in the age we like. I’d go with industrial revolution era/ steampunk.
The “races”: Tolkien is burned into all of our brains, but I think the idea of going back to our more basic stories is better. Over the years I’ve studied games and fantasy it seems there are some distinctions always made. You have the intellectuals on the cutting edge of science. You have the nature dwelling defenders of tradition. You have the brutes with strength and determination. You have the Necromance/Undead. You have the “Outsiders”, those who speak with demons/cthulu/alienists. Then you have the alternate energy guys (Psi in future; elemental in fantasy).
I’m going to Post-Apocalypse/Steam-Punk/Fantasy-Afy those ideas:
The world was like Earth in the late 1800’s. The greatest minds where exploring science. New inventions where being made every day. The light bulb, lever-action reloading, steam power, basic flight. At the same time expansion into new areas was at an all time high. The wild frontiers full of Natives where being invaded to make way for prosperous new towns. The hard working less advanced societies try and compete with man-power. Also in the world cults and (in)formal societies where all the rage. Secret handshakes would get you into meetings on topics the public would afraid of. Speaking to beings outside our realm! Bring bodies back from the dead! Channeling the hidden lay-lines!
Then the plague came. No one knows where it came from. Everyone blamed everyone else. It came from burning coal; It came from ancient spirit curses; It came from the overcrowding of slums; It came from meddling with “things-that-should-not-be-named”; It came from playing with corpses; It came from being exposed to pure energy. None, or all of that could be true, but what is true is that the plague killed everyone just the same. It swept through the world in a flash. It seems the quick travel of the modern age only helped to condemn all. It took only a few years to reach every corner of the globe. After all the rioting, starvations, and chaos over 90% of the worlds people where dead. Only now are people forming groups and trying to put there lives back together. Raiding, pillaging, and fighting over what’s left of society is the norm.
I’m getting a Pulp kinda feel from all this. Lovecraft, Wells, Hellboy, Frankenstein, and well just PULP! Is the theme at this point. He’re everything in bulletpoints:
-19th century London type cities abandoned.
-Wild West ghost towns
-Age of Sail ships, but also a few steam vessels.
-Big blimpeted air balloons.
-A biplane or two. Some gyrocopters too.
-6 equally human, yet equally crazy factions
1)Tech: The most “sophisticated”. “Proper” dress for gentlemen and ladies. Also the only faction with wide gun use. Trains, gears, gadgets, discombobulaters, lightning rods, steam boilers, ect. There are the Steampunk guys.
2)Natives: Animal and ancestor spirits jacked up 11 knotches. Let them morph into were-pumas or whatever. To make them even more appealing make them the “elves” of the world. Nothing better than cat-girl-elves. Don’t forget the Buffalo-taur brutes too.
3)Commies: Band together comrades! Ve vill use our own technology and determination to gain power. Herbology allows these mass of workers to grow green and Hulk out. What’s not to love about Russian Orcs. There Herbological tech lets them grow, and shrink. They have powerful bombs, and acid. It also gave them protein-gruel. Now their population has tripled. Maybe there’s an aphrodisiac in that slop.
4)Cultists: Lovecraft but more direct. Summoning tentacular beasts and running around in funky robes is the coolest. Don’t just limit it to Cthulu type stuff though. Throw in Demons and succubus’s; Norse/Egyption/Aztec gods too.
5)Undead: No game would be complete without undead. The best way to create a cohesive theme for undead is to figure out what makes the rise from the grave, and what give the necromancers their power. I’d tie it into the plague. Lets say the plague is kind of a mindless entity on it’s own. The Necromancers bargained with it and as long as they keep feeding it new bodies the plague does what they say.
6)Energy: Let’s just cram Psi and elemental energy together. We’ll make these guys crazy zealots who channel the hidden energy nodes and unlock latent abilities. I get an image of a shaved-head/kung-fu-monk/assassin/paladin. I also think when all the energies combine it forms captai.. no, better yet a Dragon! Instead of lizardy play up the energy part. Chaotic sea serpents. Wind swept earth quaking fire breathing Dragons!
So now that I gave my overly long brain fart on races, I’ll hit the other suggestions so far.
Specific level design: Having pre-set maps makes strategy so much better. No more plopping down Styrofoam hills and felt rivers. A pre-made map is carefully laid out. Bodhi’s tiered cost idea plugs in well. The basic map could be just a paper or gameboard map. The “special” version could be a fully 3d terrain masterpiece though. To go on top of that there could be specific bases for each map (or at least terrain type).
Honestly Impact can’t compete in volume, well not right away. So, why not aim for a higher profit margin, lower volume solution. Don’t just sculpt a bunch of goblins, dwarves, and elves. Sculpt specific ones. If Warmachine is more specific than Warhammer; then go even more specific than Warmachine. Make each sculpt unique and full of flavor. You won’t need 6 different goblins if the one you do have is a Russian vodka/napalm chucking wacko with theme poring out of his ears.
Along with that you can sculpt the gameplay much better with specific levels, and unique characters. A generic city scape can’t compete with rainy east smelttown dock district. The level could have a docked ship on one end and a clock-tower with a mini-zepplin tied to it on the other. Up the middle is the Ugly Chum bar. On the right side is the channel with bridges crossing over to the cemetery. The left side might be what’s left of a steam factory.
Each character, level, and detail would feel like it had loving care carefully etched into it. Skrew amassing hundreds of faceless troops. Create a band from dozens of highly detailed personalities. Your undead gang could consist of Dr. Accula and his flesh eating minions. Or you could make a small tribe of totem warriors from the heart of the jungle; consisting of Zan the gorilla-taur, Bo the venomous assassin, and all the sexy cat girls you can cram into a 200 point army.
Next post is on Mechanics
The gameplay and mechanics should be implemented to do very specific things. Adding rules because they make the game “better” isn’t helpful. Every rule added needs to be there to further the vision of the game. There’s always a few elements of the game that clash with each other and require a balancing act, but most sets of rules have extra baggage because the author thought it would be “neat” or “more realistic”. Game mechanics are there to create good gameplay and to invoke theme. Anything else is a waste.
Now all you need is to figure out what kind of gameplay you want, and what the theme is. Since I just vomited up a pile of theme I’ll stick with that. So, we just need to detail what kind of game we want. I’m about to start spouting some more of my opinion.
Realism is just another way of saying theme. Whenever somebody says something isn’t realistic they are actually saying they don’t think it matches the theme, or they don’t like that part of the theme. So, no realism arguments should be posted.
Here are my thoughts on gameplay.
Most games are actually really simple games with a whole bunch of garbage piled on top. Chess is an example of a clean game. It’s a game of moving pieces around. A miniature game has this element in it. Why then is there a tape measurer? It’s inaccurate and time consuming. Miniature games have a spacial movement aspect which is a good thing, but the more elegant and faster the mechanic the better.
Next miniature games have the always overly complex combat system. It always has a pile of dice rolls. Some of unwieldy charts. Others add way to many non-decisive options. A combat system that’s the opposite of that is Magic: the Gathering. 2 stats, no dice, every ability is important and game effecting.
That’s it! I don’t know how you turn chess + simple combat into a three hundred page rulebook, but somehow it happens.
I don’t have anything against dice. I just don’t like how they are the base to start from. Why is it assumed that it requires a die roll to hit somebody? On top of that why a damage roll? Attack + Damage is just another way of creating a damage chart like 0-0-0-0-0-0-1-2-3-4-5-6. In that example there was a 50% chance to hit, and a damage die of 1d6. The only thing having two rolls does is hide the probability from the players. Dice are over-used. Having a few abilities use randomness is okay. A goblin bomb sounds random, but making a sorcerers fireball random just feels wrong.
The other part of gameplay is measured success, and what the players mistake as success. A game I think fails miserably at this is Twilight Imperium 3. Everyone who sits down to play it wants to kill everyone else with spaceships, but the gameplay is actually a mediocre euro-game. The game needs a goal that matches what the players expectations.
Most miniature games just go for the dirt simple “kill the other guys army”. The logical conclusion of this gameplay is turtleing. I and most of the human race don’t find turtleing fun. Aha! But turtleing is fun we just don’t know it. The only reason turtling isn’t fun is because the goal feels like you should be attempting to kill people. What if the goal was to defend a castle? Nobody would complain or even think twice in that situation. It’s all about the goals and expected gameplay.
Now that I layed out what we need: Movement/space rules; combat rules; and a goal I’ll give my suggestions.
Movement/Space: No rulers, they are pooh. Now the next logical step is squares or hexes. Space isn’t just about movement. We also need rules on area of effect, range, and how to block other characters movement. Then what about cover. What about slow moving terrain. With hexes you need some spaces to require more movement, and the map doesn’t line up perfectly. Well I have a system that crams all that into a simple package and looks good. I call it Zones.
Here is Zones in a nutshell. Large areas of the map are zones. A zone is basicly anything a character could run across or shoot somebody in. An open field would be a zone, while a tiny room would also be a zone even though they are vastly different sizes. Since each map is redesigned the zones are carefully made for each map. There are also sub-zones (need a new name). Sub zones are areas in-between zones (transitions), and other special areas of use. Here is a horribly done map to illustrate:
It costs one movement to move within the zone your are in. Since transitions are subzones in two different zones that’s the only movement rule needed. Ranged combat works similar. You can shoot anyone within the same zone as you. Area of effect, melee, and blocking are as simple as base contact. Since you don’t have to worry about measuring you can place your character anywhere in the zone/sub-zone. Being in base contact puts you in melee range. There is some kind of penalty for breaking melee (a free parting shot?).
These simple rules create all that’s needed for fairly deep movement. Transitions are only large enough to fit a few guys, and will require getting into base contact in order to pass. So, you can effectively create a chokepoint by putting somebody in the transition. Transitions can also be oneway like windows (well a character with a jumping ability could get up there). These become ideal spots for snipers since they can shoot anybody in the zone the are in. Zones is an idea that’s been floating around my head for a while.
Now onto combat. Combat is there to try and remove the other guys miniatures. Checkers and chess handle this really simply. Paper, rock, scissors adds a deeper level. Resource, or risk management systems give the players even more hard choices. The combat system is tied quite a bit to theme. This is all kinda fuzzy in my head, but I’ll try and form it out.
Character’s have action points to do stuff with. They have a maximum action points, and they have a action point recovery rate. Whenever they take damage there maximum drops by one. Drop to 0 and your incapacitated or dead. Each character also has offence and defense scores for the three different kinds of damage. I’ll just use trauma, energy, and mind as the three kinds of damage. Attacker chooses a damage type (he might only have 1 kind of attack) and then subtracts the defenders score in that type. Anything left is damage. Simple, yet fairly deep.
There would probably been special abilities too. Regeneration: spend one action point and increase you maximum action points by one (no higher than your starting score). Flying, Jumping would have rules for enter the sky ‘zone’. There is a transition above every zone that leads to the sky zone. So if the Jump ability lets you move through the sky zone you could jump in the air, and then move in the sky zone to the window transition, effectively jumping to the window.
The last part, goals. Stealing ideas from other kinds of games is a good idea. FPS, often have command posts, or capture the flag. Each map would have it’s own specific goals, probably more than one type of game could be played per map. Collect supplies from a burning warehouse before is collapses (whoever has more supplies by X turns wins). Control all three alters for one full turn to open the portal. Connect your piece of the doohickey with the enemies (a variant of capture the flag). Anything is better than “kill the enemy”.
The last post. Sorry I wrote so much, but I just felt like throwing out an idea in my head. I probably should have chucked it on a blog and linked to it, but I’m lazy.
I don’t expect all, or any of my ideas to be used. I just wanted to share my ideas in the hope that they help a little. I’m not much for pontificating on message boards about “my revolutionary game idea”. I don’t see much use in talking about something unless you plan on doing something about it, so I’ll probably disappear into lurking unless somebody asks specific questions.
P.S. About those gnomes. I made the frames out of plastic coated floral wire (oops). After looking up pressure casting I found that plastic isn’t the best thing to put inside a sculpt. They’re about half done, but I got sidetracked painting a bunch of warmachine stuff (That’s basically my job right now). So, the gnomes are half finished and will sit there until somebody tells me some way of fixing the plastic wire problem. I don’t really care if they get done or not. I found out I can sculpt pretty well, but I’m not really all that thrilled making fantasy football gnomes (both concepts kinda leave me “blah” right now)
P.P.S I hope all this crap I just typed is decipherable. I didn't really check grammer, so it probably reads like a stream of thoughts.
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Bodhi
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On the subject of trying to create a completely new setting: Anybody seen the RPG "Talislanta"?
Very ambitious but one of the problems is that most people tend to add TO many different races and stuff in order to be original and in the end it often just becomes messy. Talsilanta is one of the most classical examples of this that I can think of. Almost impossible to play since both GM and players would have to study the world for a year or two in order to roleplay with any believability.
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Torpor
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I remember Talislanta, but is similar to Harn which was/is more 'historically' based. They are great for those who want to immerse themselves in that system, but are both way, way overdetailed for a casual player. I think that the more casual market is where Impact! wants to go initially. (Correct me if I am wrong)
I believe that a more accessible background would make sense. The object is to sell minis with a cool background, not sell a cool background that has some minis associated with it. The emphasis is on the minis. Also, the further removed that you get from the common waters of generic background, then potentially the less adaptable the miniatures get for use with other games/systems.
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alslammerz
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Alright, this topic inspired me enough to join the forum, so I hope I don't get booed off the stage for my ideas but here goes.
First, a word on how I started. I took a single idea, PULP, and broke it down into what a PULP story would entail. My answer wound up as Nazis, Detectives, Mad Scientists. Nazis made me think of the old JLA series and of Captain America, so I thought Supersoldiers. Detectives made me think Mobsters, which made me think Law Enforcement. I then added three "gangs" based on things I had seen discussed here, Undead (everybody wants Undead), Commies (somebody mentioned Commie Orks I believe) and Ordinary Folk (somebody asked for models of everyday heroes)
So there's the basic frame of the game and how I came up with the general idea. I'm working on some form of basic rule set but my ideas so far.
Theme- Post-apocolyptic 1930s-1940s. Possibly Earth, maybe the Moon. Could tie in with a Nazi experiment gone awry, a nuclear disaster, plague, or other sterotypical horror/sci-fi/post apocolyptic start.
Races- Human, Elf, Ork, Halfling, Dwarf, Goblin, Ogre, Zombie, Wolf-Man
Gangs- Nazis: The prototypical bad guys in every 30s and 40s dime novel. Roster: Regular Army, SS, 0-1 SS Officer, 0-1 Occultist. Upgrades: May be upgraded to either an Elf or an Ork. Allies: Undead Enemies: Commies
Commies: It was so in to hate the Commies in the 50s and 60s. Traditional enemy of just about everybody but the working man. Roster: Comrads, Soldiers, 0-1 Agitator, 0-1 Ninja (China was Communist too). Upgrades: May be Upgraded to either a Dwarf or a Halfling. Allies: Ordinary Folk Enemies: Nazis
Undead: There are few sci-fi/horror flicks without the occasional mob of Undead. Roster: Zombies, Wolf-Men, 1 Necromancer. Upgrades: None Allies: Nazis Enemies: Ordinary Folk
Ordinary Folk: These are the everyday guys and gals forced into fighting everybody for survival. Roster: Firemen, Farmers, 0-1 Archaeologist, 0-1 Clown. Upgrades: Firefighter may be Ork or Ogre, Farmer may be a Halfling, Archaeologist may be Dwarf or Elf, Clown may upgrade to any race except Zombie or Wolf-Man. Allies: Commies Enemies: Undead
Gangsters: The bootleggers of the Prohibition era. End every sentence with "See", see. It can kinda get annoying, see. You're gonna stop doing it, see. Roster: Thugs, Bootleggers, 0-1 Crime Boss, 0-1 Enforcer Upgrades: Thugs and Bootleggers can upgrade to Goblins. 1 may be upgraded to an Ogre. The enforcer can also be upgraded to an Ogre. Allies: Mad Scientist Enemies: Law Enforcement
Law Enforcement: The cops, gumshoes, and other various "good guys" of the dime novels. Roster: Beat Cops, Street Urchins, 0-1 Gumshoe, 0-1 Detective Upgrades: Beat Cops, Gumshoes, and Detectives may be upgraded to Elves or Dwarves. Street Urchins may be upgraded to Goblins or Halflings. Allies: Government Enemies: Gangsters
Government: There are no secret government agencies. As a matter of fact, not even the one's that are said to exist, exist. Roster: Field Agent, Analyst, 0-1 Super Soldier, 0-1 Telepaths Upgrades: The government wouldn't let any "non" humans work for them, except for Telepaths, who may be upgraded to Elves. Allies: Law Enforcement Enemies: The Government opposes the Nazis, Communists, Undead, Gangsters, and Mad Scientists. But at the same time, they could be used against each other. Best not to burn any bridges. No enemies.
Mad Scientists: (insert evil laugh here) Roster: Robots, 0-1 Mad Scientist
Upgrades: Mad Scientist may be upgraded to a Dwarf. Allies: Gangsters (they pay for the inventions) Enemies: Anybody could be a potential buyer. No enemies.
Weapons: Haven't come up with many yet, but I'm thinking a Necrom---a type thing with individual weapons lists. Example, Nazis get Mausers, Commies get AK-47, Firefighters get axes, Gangsters get Tommy Guns, Robots get zany magic lasers, Archaeologists get bull whips. Nothing that fires long range though. Pistols and short firing rifles mostly. No sniper rifles. And chainsaws for Darkson. And flamers for Zombie toasting.
Special Powers: These are for the Occultist, Ninja, Necromancer, SuperSoldiers, and Psychics. And maybe for the Clowns.
Upgrades: The race upgrades will show what those races are good at. Elfs are graceful but they can't fight in Hand to Hand, etc.
Special Characters: Many of the best ideas would have to be house-ruled for copyright reasons but think along the lines of a Sherlock Holmes and Doc Watson for the law enforcement, Al Capone for the GangstersHouse-ruled: Cap'n America, Mulder and Scully, Indiana Jones (the inspiration for the Archaeologist on that list I'll admit).
Allies: Uneasy alliances to be sure. Allies are less likely to turn on you than a non-Ally Ally (ie, Undead are less likely to turn on the Nazis than the Government) and enemies cannot be allied with.
For the one-off game, just make a set list (think the D&D starting packages) and for the campaign, let people write their own gang rosters.
As for my fluff inspiration, I play D&D, D20 Modern, almost every Grandma Wendy game, and I've read almost every book for those games, as well as the Twilight 2000 fluff, the sci-fi movies I've watched, and the pulp fiction books I've read. I'd like to think of this as a new variation on everything (not race vs. race but ideology vs. ideology with the many fantasy races each choosing their own path)
Rules: Still working on it, these are just jotted down notes I made. I need weapons lists (any WW2 history buffs?), gameplay mechanics (any suggestions?) and dice-rolling system (must give use to the D12)
Hopefully, though, I've inspired someone with more of a knack for game writing with my fluff, and they'll just take it from there.
Comments welcome. Sorry for the long post.
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Dark Lord
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Call the Nazis "Not Sees"
That's from The Dark Tower III: The Wastelands.
I always thought it clever.
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bound for glory
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heres an idea! why not forget the whole goblins/elfs/orcs/demons stuff and do a muties and humans game. thats my take. look at the 2nd ed Fantasy Football mutants. those are great! weird and wild. lots of room for conversions, road warrier humans. could be cool. and when was the last time you saw a mad max, not car wars, game?
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bound for glory
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"fleshy headed mutant, are you friendly?" "noway, eh? radiation has made me an enemy of mankind". anybody remember that line
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Torpor
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Take off you hoser
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bound for glory
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you got it, torpor "alpha base, this is bob mckenzie, i've spotted a mutant in sector 16c".
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Nyarlathotep
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Psst: ACT!
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