| Archive for IMPACT! MINIATURES A forum for the discussion of board games and miniatures of the company (Impact! Miniatures) |
| GalakStarscraper |
Looking way way out in the futureSo if we ever get to the point where we can have a more professional box made for Elfball ... I was thinking about the contents.I was wondering if we could get a simple set of 20 plastic figures put into the box. I was thinking 4 of one and 6 of another pose for Thunder Hammer Dwarf and then also 6 Black Rock Dwarf figs (1 pose) and 4 Hobimps (1 pose). This would mean only needing to have 4 figures modeled and could be done with 2 sprue designs (3 and 2 on the sprue ... 4 sprues in the box). Just me thinking out loud of how to put plastic figures in the box and not have it cost a fortune. My only question to those that have played ... would the Black Rock team have an advantage over the Thunder Hammer team. I'm thinking a Hobimp can almost be a liability in such a game (ie easy to take out) .... so I'm thinking that match up should be balanced. Thoughts? Tom |
||||
| Dark Lord |
My first reaction is "Why two Dwarf teams in a game of ELFball?"
Wouldn't Timberline Elves be a better foil to a Dwarf team? If you wanted to save money I would do what Grandma Wendy did and make them all one pose with colored bases. Also if this ever does become a possibility (or you are going to have more boards printed) let me know. I have an Elfball Board version 2.0 waiting in the wings and it looks much better than my last one IMO. |
||||
| bouncergriim |
Dwarfs are good.
Maybe Razorbacks or night elves to be a different flavour and not needing too many poses. |
||||
| brettness37 |
I agree with DL re: the two Dwarf teams.
I'm guessing it's to choose teams that have less positions, and if that's the case I'd go with either of the Dwarf teams and then Night Elves or Razorbacks. I like the idea of putting more teams in as cardstock cutouts, with upgraded art, and giving players the choice to upgrade to your pewter minis. I think it would be far cheaper R&D wise and help keep the cost of the boxed game down. And as to the suggestion of a new board design: there are 2 of us locally trying to get people playing, and one of the things we've talked about is using the same pitch design, but with larger hexes to accommodate the 30 or 40mm bases of larger players, and give room to lay down models that are down or dazed. |
||||
| Dark Lord |
This is a good idea that could be implemented easily. I support it! Paper minis with color graphics done by Illustranger or myself would be pretty cool. You can look at my avatar for what my color minis would look like.
The only problem with that is that it would need to be a bigger board altogether. And that afaik isn't possible (or at least isn't economically viable.) |
||||
| Darkson |
The idea of single pose plastics is a bit "meh!" imo, but a big "MEH!" to having 2 dwarf teams in the box.
To be honest, I perfer having a wider range of cardstock players. |
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
I could do the Thunder Hammer Dwarf team and the Night Elf team ... that's a classic good vs evil ... and racial archtype enemy mix as well. Be very easy. Could do 3 Dwarf poses and 2 Night Elf poses with one Imp. That works well and is conceptionally very nice. Now DL ... if you want to talk with me price ... I am interested in offering up cardstock counters for all the teams. We don't have much cash right now (in fact we are really cash poor at this exact second). But I would not be opposed at all to entering discussions on the cost to do this. I'm not sure we need to go as far as the detailed colour images ... heck I'd be happy with the shadow figures like you did with the boxed set. Tom |
||||
| mattwakeman |
I would happily pay money for these right now. |
||||
| Dark Lord |
And I would sell them except for the fact that I like Impact miniatures and wouldn't want to do anything to undermine their sales.
For Impact to sell them the problem is that if they paid me (or Melvin) for each illustration to make the team sheet, the final product might cost more money than people would want to pay. |
||||
| brownrob |
Or cant we use those sweet sketches of sarcos etc? 
Lots of concept art kicking about surely it can be used? |
||||
| mattwakeman |
Or alternatively why not use very high-res pictures of the painted miniatures which Impact sell and make them into counters? At least this way people would hopefully be more likely to go and buy the miniatures properly if they were that way inclined. | ||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Problem is I don't have backsides for all of them. I guess we could try to photograph front and back. Tom |
||||
| mattwakeman |
But if this is an option that you are comfortable in exploring then I can't help but think that there would be no shortage of people wanting to paint and photograph the miniatures. At least this way you would still be pushing what is the core element of the company. | ||||
| Dark Lord |
Here's the only problem I see with using pictures.
 
This would be about actual size (assuming your monitor is at 1024 x 768) and it's a comparison to the Valks silhouette. The problem isn't just one of details becoming minuscule but one of cost. It's gonna cost Impact more to print the color version than it will to print the black & white one. And like Tom said, they don't have pictures of the minis from behind to use. Either one works for me, assuming I'm the one that's gonna be assembling them in Photoshop, but as a player I think I would prefer the black and white ones...actually as a player I would prefer color cartoons of the minis but that ain't gonna happen. (At least not until I get my laser printer...which has been bumped down the priority list to third behind car repairs and dental work...  )
|
||||
| brettness37 |
Or Impact could sell the images as PDF's and forgo printing at all. Check out Worldworks games for inspiration :D | ||||
| Dark Lord |
I guess the could but honestly that stuff is pretty easy to get your hands on. Once one douchebag buys it and throws it up on limewire or bittorrent you're out of sales. Also I don't wanna have to go buy the card stock to print it. |
||||
| Thom |
I agree that at least one team needs to be Elf, it is Elfball! | ||||
| brownrob |
Of the teams I have; Gnolls Divine Wind Razorbacks Thunder Hammer Dwarves Pharoahs I could take high res pics, now I got my Tamron 90mm Macro lens!  
but if Tom isnt up for it, thats OK as well :D |
||||
| mattwakeman |
This is something I knocked up to have an idea of what it might look like if Tom was happy to go in this direction:
Have to say that I disagree with DL's comments about losing detail. Of course it all depends on what pictures you have in the first place. All hypothetical at this point but for a non-minis person like me (I bought hundreds...my brother painted them all!) I am more interested in Elfball the game rather than fantasy football miniatures and this is something that I would be personally happy using. |
||||
| Dan Titan |
Thats very cool! |
||||
| brownrob |
Yes, very impressive indeed!!! | ||||
| Dark Lord |
Those look pretty nice...however-
I'm not worried about losing detail because I think the pics need to be awesome. I think the problem is that it will become a "squinting and asking" game..."Is that a Defender? What number is he?" Look at the black widows. Do you think you'' be able to tell a Widowmaker from a midfielder? What about Deadlings! Do you think at that size you could tell a mummy from a Zombie? Let alone what number they were. Take another picture of a desert dogs team lined up for a test but this time put the camera at eye level looking down. |
||||
| mattwakeman |
Will do mate but not today as I have to make up the rest of the team first! I take what you say about 'squint and ask' but quite frankly if I was actually given the Black Widows miniatures in my hands I don't think I would be able to tell which was which (same for BW Striker and Hunter) and that is more to do with the mins themselves I would argue. Not even thought about scale or anything like that. It was just me liking the idea and seeing what it would look like. So in the next couple of days I will make up a couple of teams and set up a board and take some pics from eye level as you requested and we will see what it looks like. |
||||
| Dark Lord |
But they would have clearly visible numbers. either on their bases or on their uniforms. On a mini it's easy to use paint, numbers, colored bases etc to differentiate the players. On photos you have to either add it at the bottom with text, make the images big enough to be clearly discernible, or paint the minis the way you normally would before you take the picture or do it in photoshop. Adding it in text a la the paper minis already available will shrink the image even further so that these will be 2D images that are smaller than actual size being viewed from 1.5 to 2 feet away. At that point you might as well make them silhouettes and put the numbers on their chests. If you choose to make the images bigger you will be able to clearly see the positions of the players but will still need to add numbers to the images...at least to differentiate different players of the same position. You can add that to the images to make them yet even bigger and probably a normal 28 mm mini will end up about 45mm tall. Or... ...You can have a designer change color patterns and add numbers to the images in photoshop...which runs into paying a designer to curse and fuss about the low res images he's working with. Meanwhile all of this is a lot of effort for a mini company to put into an item that undermines their main product.
I tell you what I might do is scan all of my 1st Edition fantasy football paper minis into a PDF format. Then I'll email it out upon request. 
|
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
I'm personally a fan of DL's shadow folks.
They are numbered. They are easy to see ... and they have the player position clearly identified. I know they are not as flash as matt's examples (which are very nice) ... but I do think they are clear and easy to read while playing. And I have played a game with them. My only complaint was that they were a bit too tall and we on occassion would have them slip out of the plastic base if you moved them too quickly. But overall I was happy with them. === Again if I was going to improve the boxed set ... I might seriously see just what 2 plastic sprues would cost me to have made. Galak |
||||
| Dark Lord |
That's two! Anyway, we just scotch taped the bottoms or folded them into triangles witout using the bases at all. But I will still scan my Bl00d B0wl 1st ed paper minis into a PDF for you guys. |
||||
| Stout Youngblood |
I have to say I would prefer the b/w like what is in the box, easier to identify. | ||||
| GalakStarscraper |
As I seem to keep saying ... when Impact! digs it way out a bit of the debt hole we've staying in for over two years ... I'll talk to DL about this (or heck if he is serious about working for lead we can make it happen faster).
I think for a product for the store ... I'm much more interested at least at present in the shadow folk. The biggest issue would be shadow folk for the Middle Kingdoms and Timberline Elves as we really have nothing for them at this time. Illustranger has the Timberline on his plate and we have some concept work on the Middle Kingdoms at this time. Galak |
||||
| Dark Lord |
I could probably extrapolate something for those teams. I mean Middle Kingdoms...mohawk helmets and capes and viola! As far as elves...same deal...some pointy ears and some leaves and ta-da!
Take this guy. Black him out. Add pointy ears or a spartan helmet and done! Or if that makes you nervous I have a mannequin I can pose and shoot. |
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Sounds reasonable ... when you have time to work on this and get to the 4 teams without art ... we can discuss our concepts for them. The beauty of shadow folk is that we don't need to get too detailed with those concepts. I have all the sketch art for the teams not sculpted yet or still being sculpted (Siringit, Sarcos, and the Black Rock Dwarves (just the centaurs here)) Galak |
||||
| Mephisto |
I thought Middle Kingdoms would be something like a Spartan team. 
|
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Galak |
||||
| mattwakeman |
As requested here they are. I'm not that good a photographer I have to admit and there are lots of light issues but hopefully this shows that I don't think that it becomes a squint and ask game as long as the mins themselves which the pictures are based on are significantly different to the others. Anyways, by the sound of it this isn't the direction that Tom wants to go in which is fair enough but I thought that I would post the pics anyway. 
|
||||
| Dark Lord |
With those the way you have them how would you tell one defender from another? That was the my point. For example in your bottom picture, let's say one defender has lost a point of jog but earned two skills and the other is a rookie...how would I, as the Pharaohs coach, know which was which?
You would have to paint the numbers on the base...which sorta defeats the purpose of paper minis for those who don't want to paint. Or if when you do the photoshop work you have add a number to the picture. So, if the images are the ones like you have, to put numbers on them and make them look nice you have to make them blend with the image...which means they are gonna be hard to see. If the image is a back silhouette you can make the number large, right in front and contrast with the black and it still looks good. I agree these look great and for a team full of rookies they would be fine but as a soon as numbers became important you would be squinting at the images. Which is why, when I said "squint and ask", I specifically made a hypothetical quote asking "What number is he?" I think your fold ups look great, I just don't think they work for anything but rookie teams. And Impact doesn't have images for Siringit, Middle Kingdoms, Timberline Elves, Orcs, or Ratmen yet. EDIT: Keep coming up with suggestions! I mean, there's never anything wrong with ideas and brainstorming. |
||||
| mattwakeman |
Well in the other game I always played with numbers being on the base and I wouldn't do anything different with these. Since I laminated them as well then I suppose that you could just as easily use non-permanent markers to write the number on the players both front and back. But I take what you are saying that they are mainly useful for rookie teams. As things stand I was only really making them to show what they would look like. I need to play more games of EBall and since I don't have any miniatures then I needed something that would be useful. | ||||
| Lakrillo |
To me those looks good. And no problem with putting a number up in a corner of the pictures.
Although color-printing is way more expensive than black and white... |
||||
| Dark Lord |
Now I know if you use image viewing software and zoom you might be able to tell but I can't read some of those numbers. For example what is the position and number of the goalie. I mean the point of these is so you know at a glance what the position and number of the player is without needing to paint up models. I understand what you guys are saying and I agree that color photographs look pretty good...but they just aren't functional. It doesn't do any good to make paper models of miniatures for non-painters if they have to paint the bases. It also makes a problem for the minis that aren't sculpted yet. Now I'm not in charge of this, it's Tom's decision to make...I'm just the graphic designer. But my experience tells me that it wouldn't work well. For color paper models I would say cartoon drawings would even work better than pictures because with dark outlines and high contrast you can accentuate the details that matter and deemphasize the ones that don't. I'm not trying to be contrary out of spite but I do have some expertise in this.
Believe me I would love it of Tom paid me put together a bunch of color photos of minis or cartoons.
|
||||
| duttydave |
I do think that I'd much prefer miniatures to playing with pieces of card, although those photocard miniatures are pretty good.
I'd prefer two teams of plastic miniatures in the box. If the previously mentioned Dwarfs versus Night Elves could be done fairly easily then I'd be happy with that. |
||||
| mattwakeman |
Actually I was thinking about this and the solution is really quite easy. The cards are actually very easy (in real life) to tell which position is which (the pictures really don't do them justice) so all you would need is a handful of differently coloured bases. If you couldn't tell which defender is which then if one had a blue base and one a red that problem doesn't exist. All that happens if that you write on the roster 'Defender (Red)' etc etc. Of course all of this is pretty much moot now and for the good of the company as a whole I would prefer people to be buying the mins. |
||||
| Dark Lord |
Different colored bases (you would need like 8 for teams like Siringit) and color printouts on cardstock.
How much would you pay for each sheet of those?
|
||||
| SillySod |
Why dosent elfball ship with a packet of different coloured tiddlywinks?
These are all nice ideas but personally I would prefer to see minis in the boxed set.... or nothing (very little)... I'd still buy it but I'd prefer if the price isnt ramped up by lots of card stock that I wouldnt use. |
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
I have no plans at all to include more than 2 teams in the box whether plastic or cardboard. If we do extra sheets of the teams ... I'll sell the entire set of all the teams other than the ones in box in the store as a seperate item. I already told Dark Lord I'd work out a compensation deal with him to make shadow folk for all the other races for this. Tom |
||||
| mattwakeman |
Not true! You only need coloured bases for when you have more than one player in the same position. So for the Siringit you would only need to have three colours. In fact you would only ever need erm, nine different colours for Gnomes....oh dear, I see my plan may well have run into some slight problems!!!! Ah well, as I have already said at the end of the day Impact is primarily a miniature company and long term plastic teams in the box are much better for the company. Back to the drawing board I suppose
|
||||
| Dark Lord |
Personally I hope we see the day when plastics are included. I think it would be pretty cool! Even if they were nothing more than the blue and red plastics that came with 2nd Ed Bl00d Bowl.
Plastic bits in red & blue legitimize a game for mainstream consumption. |
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Might happen. Like I said ... if we ever decide that this is it ... the rules are set ... we are happy ... let's make it happen ... then we just might pull the trigger and spend the 50000 USD to make the board game into something you might purchase at Toys 'R Us. HOWEVER ... before we get there ... we still have to pay off the partner debt which is not a small number at this point. Galak |
||||
| mattwakeman |
I've always been surprised that plastic mins haven't become the dominant form rather than lead / pewter / whatever. But it would be a nice sight to see EBall in a 'proper' (though I hate using that word in this context) box and with miniatures. But think how far you have already come and who knows how close you are to a box full of Thunder Hammer Dwarves (with lots of different coloured bases...ahem )
|
||||
| Dark Lord |
I think plastic is more expensive to cast in smaller quantities than white metal because of the cost of molds...though I could be wrong. | ||||
| Dark Lord |
Here's a X-mas gift idea for Tom.
http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/inject/index.html |
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
plastic mould = $5000 to $10000 |
||||
| Dark Lord |
I would ask in that case if the price discrepancy there is because you asked a company who didn't have the capability to cast in plastic? Maybe if you went to a company who already had the ability would it be cheaper?
Honestly for 10 grand I would think you could buy your own centrifuge or 3. http://www.contenti.com/products/spin-casting/175-120.html And a mold usable for polyurethane resins casts costs $35. I have no experience in shopping for this sort of thing but I do know that a spin caster costs less than $10,000 so I find it curious that you were quoted a price that high. |
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Tom |
||||
| Dark Lord |
It's a strange number, I have to say. I haven't done any casting myself but I have used a spin caster before and I find it suspicious that a mold would cost 3 times the value of the machine...and sorry but I get even more suspicious when you say Grandma Wendy.
|
||||
| Thom |
I do cast, years ago I started casting bullets and more recently I have made small run molds to clone OOP Minis (For my personal collection of course) with some good success. Using Castaldo Quick-Sil, making small run molds is very easy (The same thing they use to make the first masters) and good for 5 or 6 dozen good minis. Of course for every good mini, two or three go back to be remelted as they are being handcast. But if you were to spincast, then you only need 8 or 10 masters to make your first spin mold with. Spin casting fills the molds more evenly so the reject rate drops dramaticly and the vulcanised rubber used in those molds last much longer than Quick-Sil.
Casting metals is easier in many respects and the equipment costs much less. I am planning to make my own spincaster in the not too distant future. Industrial ductwork fans are perfect for the task and I have seen several home made spincasters built with them. One of the 1List groups I used to belong too showed the launch of a gargage industry miniature production facility using entirely home made machinery and this has always stuck with me. If I won the lotto tomorrow then I would retire to persue my hobbies and dreams, foremost of which would be a miniature's foundry. Plastic injection molds are another thing entirely. The molds need to be machined from steel or back cast over a carbide master. Aluminum won't last long with injected plastics (The hot plastic erodes aluminium quickly). So while plastic minis are super cheap to make, (once you have the molds), getting the molds and injecter is very expensive. So while a large established company might make the leap into injection molding production, the small guy never will, nor will he even be able to afford to contract the work unles he can promise millions in sales. . . |
||||
| Dark Lord |
But I believe plastic (or at least polyurethane resins) can be used in spin casters. Injection molding is probably the popular way for most large scale runs but I'm pretty sure it isn't the only way. | ||||
| Thom |
I could be wrong Eric but I think it still calls for heat and pressure on a production scale. On the small scale though (Like my level of mini production) then your labor costs make it financialy impossible. I am sure there are some resin methods though that I am unfamiliar with, but I am not aware of any using centrifical-resin processes. That actually seems quite wastefull to me. With centrifical molds you have a gross amount of waste. With metals (And even some plastics) you can remelt that scrap for the next batch, but with resins? I think that would be a major loss. But again, I am certainly not familiar with every technique. If you have some links I would love to look it over and learn more!
Seriously, this is my dream should I ever achive financial freedom! Everything I can learn about it is all gravy. I wanna make mini's and somebody else can sell them! |
||||
| Darkson |
When you say resins, do you mean the resins that Forge World use and Goblin Forge used, then I think Impact should stay away from them - I've seen more complaints regarding resin FF figs than any other. If you mean resins in a generic term, then ignore this post.
|
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Impact! will never do resin. Honestly rather close up shop if metal became too expensive. Just never been happy with any resin figs I have received (without exception).
Galak |
||||
| Dark Lord |
Well the link I posted earlier sells rubber molds for a spin caster that are usable with "Polyester and polyurethane"
They also sell silicon molds that vulcanize at room temperature, though it's unclear if they are usable with Polyester and polyurethane. Like I said, I don't know anything about this stuff in detail just what I have learned from artist circles, and gaming. I found that site by searching for cheap green stuff. Oh and the main point I was making was that the $10K for one mold price tag seemed high. According to this site you could buy a spin caster, a vulcanizer and 100 rubber molds (the ones specified to make highly detailed plastic and white metal casts) for under $7000. I'm sure Grandma Wendy uses injection molds if that's what they say they cost...but if Impact started selling models that assembled like Grandma Wendy models I wouldn't buy them. |
||||
| Norse |
Tom, you'll never have to close the shop.. when I was a kid I used to steal lead from Church rooves to make fishing weights.. there's always a way..
and I, of course, have found the way straight to Hell...
|
||||
| brownrob |
So thats why they kicked you out of Scotland!!!
|
||||
| Thom |
By golly it does say that sir! Thanks for pointing that out, I will investigate this further! |
||||
| Dark Lord |
Yeah if I had the capital I would start my own casting service for sure...and then start practicing more with green stuff. I guess I do things backwards.
Actually I really am saving up for a big laser printer. I'm gonna produce my own games and game supplies. |
||||
| Thom |
I am still playing with Green Stuff myself, but the truth is that I lack artistic talent so it is going very slowly for me. Premade armatures help though!
I always figured a huge blue print size color ink jet printer would be the way to go for producing maps & such on small scale stuff but they are really to spendy for me to just be buying as toys.
Spin casting though, well that can be gotten into fairly cheap. It's not something I would want to do day in and day out, but short production runs to order would be fine and even fun. Of course the ultimate achievement (In my opinion) would be to do the whole thing from sculpt to finished mini ready to ship to the seller, sadly getting to this stage is most likely just a dream. . . |
||||
| Dark Lord |
Maybe we should team up? I know I could sculpt the stuff with enough practice. The problem is finding the time, and having the money to waste on practice. Sculpture was always my forte, even above and beyond my beloved charcoal figure drawings. I'm used to sculpting with non-sticky, slow drying clay so green stuff has been a bit of a challenge. Actually the beholder referee has come along nicely. I'm almost done with it.
|
||||
| Mephisto |
WE WANT PICS!!!!!! 
|
||||
| Dark Lord |
I only have the tentacles done and the middle section is little more than a blob. I don't think pictures would be flattering at this point.
Sides only Tom is glutton enough to show WIPs.
|
||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Galak |
||||