GalakStarscraper
|
Need discussion please ... the Stars on the Challenge DiceOkay so for 5.1 ... I added an introductory rule that made the Stars equal to 2 successes instead of the 1 success and roll again.
I've had a LOT of feedback on how much faster and more fun the game is with this rule.
So now I come before you to get honest feedback.
Should 2 successes be the normal rule and the conditional success be the optional rule (for more chaotic games)?
I'm still getting the occassional email that the game is taking too long ... and conditional successes are pointed to as a major culprit of this.
====
The whole reason I did the conditional successes was I never wanted anything in Elfball to be impossible. Need 5 successes on 4 dice in order to win the game ... that can happen. In fact with enough luck ... nothing is impossible with the conditional success rules. Need 5 succeesses with 2 dice ... it could happen.
However ... the 2 successes rule does ensure that the vast vast majority of rolls can happen. It would be a rare roll that would be impossible to achieve.
And while the conditional success rule is novel and different ... its also confusing to folks (especially when trying to mix Momentum with it).
=====
So honest feedback here please.
Would the game be better off if the Conditional success rules where moved to the optional rules page and the Stars = 2 successes rule moved to the normal rules?
Galak
|
antipixi
|
Personally I like the conditional successes. I really enjoy the fact that every player has a chance, however small, of succeeding in any challenge.
I like it the way it is; with 2 successes as an optional rule.
Chris
|
GrumpyGrizzly
|
I have talked about this with a number of the people that I play with. What I have noticed is that the new people really like the optional rule. This is going to be a bit long, so I apologize now. It's only my love for the game that makes me ramble 
I have found, particularly with the new player, that it isn't the mechanic of "reroll the star" that makes them hate it. It is the morale issue. If we imagined that a person had a morale score (higher = more fun with the game), I want to look at 6 seperate cases that can occur on a single dice roll:
Case 1: Star + flop = 0 successes
Case 2: Star + blank = 1 success
Case 3: Star + bullseye = 2 successes
Case 4: Star + Star + flop = 1 succes
Case 5: Star + Star + blank = 2 successes
Case 6: Star + Star + star/bullseye = 3 success
What I have noticed is that on my pretend scale
Case 1: -5 morale
Case 2: -1 morale
Case 3: +2 morale
Case 4: -2 morale
Case 5: +3 morale
Cage 6: +4 morale
Quite simply people don't like it when the game "takes their candy". Sure it's great when they get the single dice roll that gave them 6 successes, but that doesn't happen very often. What people tend to remember is that "I had the successes and the stupid star dice took it away". I had one player I was teaching (before the optional rule came out) beg me to let a star simply stand without the reroll. Admittedly the dice had been mean to him earlier (a lot).
There are times that I have attempted the impossible, knowing that I not only needed a conditional, but another conditional afterwards. It's those time that I tend to focus on. Watching a skill 1 player make the big catches like they meant it. But for a new player, that's not really what they think about.
Examining the dice mechanics change a bit:
Currently on a single dice roll:
Flop = 16.7%
0 success = 36.1%
1 success = 38.9%
2 successes = 8.3%
Proposed New:
Flop= 16.7%
0 success = 33.3%
1 success = 33.3%
2 successes = 16.7%
So it's a pretty significant change in the ability to make successful challenges. But is this a bad thing? The game would lose some of it's random nature. Not all of it, but some of it. On the other hand, people might be a bit bolder in the plays that they attempt, opening it up for more aggressive styles.
Right now I feel that EB can really make you pay for being a bit more aggressive than normal. It's a fast and loose play style. But open up too much and *wham* flopped and it's over.
It needs a lot more testing, so I can't give a definitive answer. But if I am leaning towards making star = 2 successes, because I think it would open up the game for more aggresive play and more crazy attempts from skill 1 players trying to pick up the ball.
The only worry is that this takes some of the sting out of having skill/grit one because you've got a much higher chance (8.4%) of coming off with 2 successes on a single dice.
|
Dark Lord
|
I say leave it as is. I really enjoy the "counts as 2" rule for the speed factor and simplicity and it's really great for tournament rules but the other way is definitely more fun.
You have both rules in the rule book now, switching around the "officiality" of the rules is just not necessary. We're gonna play it the way we want no matter what the EB Police say. 
|
bouncergriim
|
I really like the star mechanic as is. I can see the argument for 2 success for newbies. But I like the random nature of conditionals.
I do see the morale argument for new players, but once you have the game down it makes things a little crazier. When I play I am out for fun and randomness, I don't expect to win every test.
So how I see it
Leave it as is:
Pros:
A kind of unique mechanic
Helps keep things random
And that is how it has been
Ability to get three successes on 1 die rolls
Nothing is ever truly impossible
Cons: (these are compared to changing it
Less likely to succeed on challenges (more bad rolls)
Slows the game down a bit
Simplifies the game
Requires less dice overall (I find that I really like having 12 dice on the table 6 for me 6 for my opponent and then share when we need to reroll conditionals and are out of blanks from the original roll)
I could see it either way and would play it either way. But I like the randomness (even with my 2hr tests), because you never take things for granted and it is fun to watch 2 stars become nothing every once in a while.
|
Stout Youngblood
|
Leave it like it is. Both rules are stated and it is up to the two people playing it to decide which one to use.
|
Darkson
|
Haven't played as many games as I'd like, but the few games I did play with a fellow club memeber, the conditional sucess rule was one of the ones he liked best, as it was "different".
I like it to, so personally I'd prefer for it to stay the way it is.
|
GalakStarscraper
|
I appreciate the feedback ... thanks!
Tom
|
fen
|
I must admit the 'exploding dice' conditional successes do cause a few problems with the few games we've already played. It's just as well I bought an extra set of dice because I've already had to roll over 20 dice for one action because a lot of them came up.
It would work a lot better if the dice used weren't six sided, but right now for ease of pace I find that it's can get a little tedious having to reroll (aproxx) 20% of the dice before finding out my final result.
If the game used D10s I'd be all for the conditional successes as they are, but D6s causes them to happen a little too often.
|
Dark Lord
|
What distribution of a D10 would you want?
IE the ame with more blanks, or 2 Targets, 3 Stars, 1 X, or what?
|
Stout Youngblood
|
| fen wrote: | | It's just as well I bought an extra set of dice because I've already had to roll over 20 dice for one action because a lot of them came up. |
Same reason I bought a second set of dice.  Everyone I've shown the game to has enjoyed that aspect of the game...where nothing is (technically) impossible. Have even seen some instances where the impossible has come true. 
|
fen
|
| Dark Lord wrote: | What distribution of a D10 would you want?
IE the ame with more blanks, or 2 Targets, 3 Stars, 1 X, or what? |
Good question, my main experience with the conditional success/exploding dice mechanic comes from the D10 Roll and Keep system where 0's count as 10s and add another dice. They also have an inherent risk with the result of more 1s than anything else counting as essentially a flop. But that's in an RPG (7th Sea). Which changes other factors greatly.
Theoretically if it was switched to D10s then I'd like to see the ratio perserved as much as possible. Right now the dice is 16% Flop, 50% success (of which 1 is conditional). So I guess the ratio I'd be most comfortable on a D10 would be 2 Flop, 4 Success, 1 Conditional, 3 Blank.
A D12 would work in an easier fashion. 2 Flops, 5 Successes, 1 Conditional Success and 4 Blanks. That keeps the same ratio of everything except for conditionals. It's still possible to do the impossible with this, it's just not as common here.
I like the conditional success mechanic a lot, it's present in my alltime favourite RPG and it being in Elfball means I automatically like it being here. I just wish I wasn't rolling an extra dice 1 in 6 times I roll. It's happening more often than I'm comfortable with.
(I do realise that using dice other than a D6 makes many boardgamers uncomfortable...)
|
Tarota
|
From a gameplay point of view, I think I prefer the conditional rolls. Granted, I haven't played with the 2-success rule (it's been a busy spring!), but the possibility of pulling off the impossible is too appealing to pass up. That, and most people won't bother to do the math, so I have an information advantage there .
However, as someone who likes rigorous and streamlined rules, I would say switch the two rules. (Make double success standard, and conditional success optional.)
1) Tournaments should use the standard rules, not optional rules.
2) Beginning players should move from standard rules to adding optional rules.
These aren't hard and fast rules, but they seem like sensible guidelines to me. Obviously, I'm of two minds on the subject myself  , but I did want to put the argument out there.
|
Thom
|
If I may offer a suggestion for a small change. . .
| Rulebook 5.1 Page 2/3 in .pdf wrote: | | If you do not have Elfball Challenge dice you can use a normal D6 with the 1 being X, 2 & 3 are Blank, 4 as a Conditional Success, and 5 & 6 are a Success. |
Coming from the world of Tabletop RPGs I, and those of us in the same gaming genre, are used to the "Rule of 1 and X" (X = Highest value on a given type of die). With this rule a 1 = failure (like the Flop) and an X = Automatic Success (or best possible outcome).
Therefore, with the Star having the highest value, (be it 2 successes or 1 + a possible success) it should equal 6 (or X as the case may be).
I know this sounds nitpicky, but it actually caused me problems in the form of confusion, other gamers coming in new to the game might be more easily adopting were this common gaming convention followed.
|
Tarota
|
| Thom wrote: | | Therefore, with the Star having the highest value, (be it 2 successes or 1 + a possible success) it should equal 6. |
Agreed. It made some sense when the star could mean 0 successes (even if it were more likely to mean 2), but if a star always means 2 successes then it should really change to a 6.
Not that I want to discourage your custom Elfball dice sales by making the substitution more intuitive, obviously...
|
Rab
|
I like the way round the rules are now. I, too, like the fact that no action is impossible in the game, some are just very unlikely
I think it fits in very well with all the Momentum rules - sometimes even the difficult things go your team's way, other times even the easy things go wrong.
EDIT - maybe the 2 success rule could be more prevalent in tournaments?
|
antipixi
|
| Rab wrote: | I think it fits in very well with all the Momentum rules - sometimes even the difficult things go your team's way, other times even the easy things go wrong.
|
Like when you flop after building up 5 or 6 momentum! Hey Rab! 
|
Xtreme
|
I think the stars counting as two is a big improvement, I never really liked the conditional success and always found it to be kinda clumsy. But at the same time I haven't played enough Elfball to get comfortable with what I need to roll in the first place, so I had to refer back to the reference card a lot.
|
SillySod
|
I quite like the conditional successes the way they are at the moment. I havent tried using the optional rules though so I couldnt tell you which is better. I want to get to grips with more opponents and feel more confident that I have explored all of the basic strategies properly before I suggest any rules changes.
If its any help I think the game will be fine either way
|
Rab
|
| antipixi wrote: | | Like when you flop after building up 5 or 6 momentum! Hey Rab! |
 
|
Torg
|
I prefer the conditional successes, but never tred the optional rule.
|
Dark Lord
|
| Torg wrote: | | I prefer the conditional successes, but never tred the optional rule. |
Give it a shot. IMO it's great for a quick game and less randomness but much less fun than the conditionals. I hope Tom knows better than to sacrifice fun for speed. A boring game that is over quickly is not gonna be played as many times as a fun game that takes 4 hours. (Examples: Decent: Journeys in the Dark vs. Drakon)
|
GalakStarscraper
|
| Dark Lord wrote: | | I hope Tom knows better than to sacrifice fun for speed. |
I do.
I wanted to ask the question ... the feedback I've received has been very helpful. We'll leave the rules as they are.
Galak
|
Lychanthrope
|
Good idea Tom as many of the games that have made the test of time take awhile to play. Clue, Monopoly, Life, just to name a few. Heady thoughts for Elfball at his point, but that's what you're aiming at.
|
Mad Jackal
|
If my 5 year old can handle it. I don't think it's too hard for new players.
I love the fact that everyone has a chance. Just knowing certain players could not make certain rolls, would ruin it for me I think.
Lots of dice rolling has already been removed, (like the get up challenge and the catch after many passes) I don't think we roll too much.
|
Norse
|
we may want to think about it more seriously for the GenCon demo games.. they ought to be a bit quicker..
Tom, did we get the bar tables and stools we discussed last year?? comfy chairs and tables seemed to prolong the agony for Jennifer..
|
SillySod
|
I was thinking about this the other day and realised that keeping the conditional result helps to emphasise the importance of momentum. I'd leave a more detailed post but I dont really have time (home net down ). Basicly its because a double success will never be re-rolled by momentum where a normal conditional WILL have a result that you want to re-roll. It also makes momentum slightly less useful for killing players.
Personally I think that both those things are desirable
PS Die Rob, Die
|
|
|
