| Archive for IMPACT! MINIATURES A forum for the discussion of board games and miniatures of the company (Impact! Miniatures) |
| Cephalopod |
Orange County,CA Elfball LeagueHello all,I'm starting up an Elfball League in my home stomping grounds (Yes, I do more than program). This Sunday will be a day for practice games. Thereafter we'll meet twice per month for a League day. So, if anyone on the forums is interested please let me know. Currently we have six. We'll be using the optional rule for two player activations per turn and games will last either 60 or 90 minutes (still undecided). 3 games per meet. Any advice on running a league? I have before for a couple of games, and once before for Elfball, but I'm always willing to hear thoughts and advice. |
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| Cephalopod |
League practice games happened today. We used the optional rules for conditionals = 2 successes and two activations per turn. The conditionals = two successes streamlined the game quite a bit, and it certainly didn't stop flops, we had plenty!
The two activations per turn was way more fun than I had anticipated. Combos, risk vs. rewards (SiM sucks when you have an activation left!), we actually got a lot of replacements on the field. Good fun! The Sirinigt player won both games, but not without a fight. Getting a Defender down field was punishing on the skilled players in the backfield. Highlights include one hippo crippling two different players on back to back turns (a Pharaoh Thrower and a striker), a Tantor getting the ball and then promptly being knocked unconscious for his troubles while one activation away from the goal, and a Gorillaur that could not pick up the ball to save his life. If anyone is playing with one activation per turn I highly recommend trying out two activations per turn. The games get faster paced and the combos are fun. Does anyone have suggestions for dealing with high might, high tackle players? The response seems to be use your own beast to take them out, but I think there might be a more elegant solution. As a note to myself, I need to order another game board so that we can have three games going simultaneously. |
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| Dark Lord |
Use cheerleaders or momentum gained elsewhere to make sure you get the Impact Challenge and then throw a mkidfielder at them, or some other player with a decent amount of Tackle that isn't essential to your game plan. Specifically, if you are talking about defenders or the Tantor then the same still applies, and hit them from behind if possible. Most of the time they are slow and have low dodge, so if you make that Impact Challenge you only need 1 success to take them down. And all the extra successes are just make it harder for them to get back up. Don't forget that you can use your momentum earned to affect their Injury Challenge. |
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| Cephalopod |
Good call and we'll be introducing potions, cheerleaders, etc starting next week so we'll get a chance to try that out. | ||||
| GalakStarscraper |
I concur with DL. The real trick is to hit them from behind with momentum (from some source) in your back pocket.
The low Dodge means they timber down pretty easily (and injure as well) once you get past that Impact challenge. Galak |
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| Dark Lord |
Bottomline, don't be eskerred! 
Big guys are nothing to worry about in Elfball. |
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| GrumpyGrizzly |
I agree with this. Coming from Grandma's FF I was used to the horror what was skilled big guys. But you can deal with big guys in a number of ways. Having an assist on them can make a big difference as well. I have found that disengaging to their back and slamming into them can make a lot of difference as well. Definitely don't have to hit them head on. I am more scared of widowmakers, they have done more damage to me than a big guy. Though I do truly love my "Big Earl" on my sarcos team 
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| Cephalopod |
I already agreed with this before, but when we were playing one activation per turn they were scarier. Now they aren't as bad since it is much easier to get help. The big guys actually weren't a big problem. It was the Defenders getting downfield that seemed to be able to do tremendous damage. I think that was because they aren't big guys, so the perception was that they wouldn't be as bad as the ultimately were. In one games, a single defender took 3 players out of the game, two of them career ending. It was rough, though I think it was a statistically unlikely event. In previous games they hadn't been that bad.
Widowmakers are truly scary, agreed. The worst is when she stays back in the goal circle since my plan is to usually cherry-pick her when she gets close. If she stays back I have to worry about any player I move up to get into scoring position. Using the two activation per turn rule at least I make the widowmaker pick which player to go after when I move two up. |
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| Dark Lord |
See, I find that interesting. I can see that she is a threat. Her dodge makes her nasty and she is an excellent goal tender. However, I know from experience, she falls down one and one time only in a game. You knock her down and plant a watcher over her and she's done.
After she's out of there the rest of the team is mostly harmless. |
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| Cephalopod |
Yeah, we had the same experience the first couple of games. Which is why she stays back and guards the goal now. Makes her harder to get. 
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| MidniteXpress |
Ceph, I know you're pretty busy but do you think we could get some game highlights from your league?
As yet I haven't found any other elfball players in my area of scotland, and I'd like to see how a season progresses. Just a quick and simple highlight would be great, bt if you don't have time then no worries |
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| brownrob |
Se this is what I love about ElfBall, so many strategies, all of which are workable, where no foolproof strategy will work 9 times out of 10
Cover Ball, pick it up, form a cage, spend half the game creeping towards the goal line... maiming along the way, let him score quickly, then rinse and repeat until he has nobody left! Fun! Or maybe we are too stupid to not have worked out the broken strategy yet!
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| brownrob |
where in scotland are you midnite? I used to live in Edinburgh?
There are a fair few FF players up in Scotland also |
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| Cephalopod |
Hey, I'd love to. I'll post win-loss records and highlights. Perhaps if I drink enough I'l even post color commentary... 
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| MidniteXpress |
just south of dundee, near st andrews. the ff players tend to be of the granny w variety around here, which i learned the hard way is best avoided lol too many military types. I've just got to convert a few people to elfball and i'll be ok 
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| Dark Lord |
We haven't found one yet either. It seems like what works is much dependent on the coach rather than the team they are playing. One of the things I like most about Elfball is it's actually very hard to say what my strategy is step by step. IMO to win consistently you have to be versatile and reactionary. The strategy that works is the strategy that is fluid. |
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| Cephalopod |
Converting worked for me, but what also works is finding players interested in mini or board games that have never played any other fantas sports game. I got a couple of people that way, then veteran Fantasy Football players followed suit. | ||||
| Dark Lord |
have you noticed a sharper learning curve for the Bl00d B0wl converts? We did. The virgins just pick it up and start running with it. The B-B'ers have to shake loose the cobwebs.
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| MidniteXpress |
it's not just b-b'ers, i've noticed the granny w lot have trouble switching to any game system. i must admit i rarely play granny games by granny rules, i usually redesign them to flow better...something i have no intention of doing with elfball. |
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| Dark Lord |
Well I always played Grandma Wendy games for the fluff and the minis. Once that stuff took a sharp drop in quality you are left with broken games, crappy minis and no fluff. What is the point, right? | ||||
| mattwakeman |
Even though I have only been able to play a handful of Elfball games (hoping that Ceph's great work on the tool will change this) this is pretty much me. Despite having moved at the end of my BBowl career to simultaneous turns which I loved I still fall into the trap of trying to play one game with another game's positional mindset. I found that trying to think of gradual movement and focusing intent was harder to get since I was used to the crashing wave of the other game sprinkled with some god-like players to get me out of trouble. But of course, learning is half the fun isn't it?! |
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| Cephalopod |
Just a heads up, I'm holding another practice session on Tuesday (tomorrow). We'll try out DL's card system and see if we want to incorporate that into the League as well.
League Kickoff is currently scheduled for 3/8. Here's to hoping it all goes well.
Edit: Practice session canceled due to illness |
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| MidniteXpress |
Ceph, I meant to ask. What teams are being used? | ||||
| Cephalopod |
Not everyone has decided quite yet, but currently we have:
Siringit Timberline Elves Black Widows The other three are undecided, but Black Rock Dwarves are likely for one player. Possibly the Pharaohs as well. |
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| Dark Lord |
Hey Ceph before you use the cards check your PMs!
We updated the cards after the first use, and since I am getting it together to make proper decks to possibly sell I didn't update the forums. 
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| Cephalopod |
PMs checked. I'll make those changes. Unfortunately due to illness at my house we won't be able to have the practice session. On the plus side I'll be taking care of my wife, who has a cold. That she has given it to me is of no moment... | ||||
| Cephalopod |
Ok, we'll have another practice game tonight. Siringit vs. Timberline. | ||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Galak |
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| MidniteXpress |
won't the variety that comes with the Siringit team be able to compensate? not to mention it takes guts to try shove a tantor, fail and you get smacked into next week. |
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| Dark Lord |
It would be an interesting match for sure, but I disagree with the "smacked into next week" assessment.
Maybe just the "next week" part. Tantors can Tackle to be sure, but they don't injure as much as you would think. They're pretty good at shoving out of bounds tho! Especially down by the goal.
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| Cephalopod |
I don't think that will be a problem. The might 4 Dryads are fast enough to get in and help and they are also fast enough to get around into the Tantor's rear hexes, reducing the needed successes by 1. Also, the Tantor is likely to be in the thick of things so there are likely to be assists readily available as well from other Timberline players. The Timberline team will probably have two hunters out, so at a guess he'll shove with the Dryads to build momentum and position the assist and then move the Hunter in to lay the Tantor out. I think what the Timberline team needs to be really concerned with is the 5 Dodge mecat. Those things are speedy and can get away from most elves no problem. 3 successes on 4 dice just doesn't feel like a good bet anymore.
In our previous game I had a very, very hard time breaking out of a scrum of 4 dryads until I got my own slower defender in there. Even with that, I had to get a hunter in there to really pin the Dryads down. Might 4 is rough when you don't field many players that have the same might. The Tantor was a non-factor in that game, though to be fair he was defending the goal. I won't do that again. Local definitions for the next paragraph: Weakside: The side of the pitch that does not have replacement entry hexes. Strongside: The side of the pitch that does have replacement entry hexes. This time around my starting lineup will be a little different. I'll have a Defender up for the faceoff, a Tantor on my weakside along with a mecat. My strongside will have my thrower and a mecat or a midfielder. I'll have my hunter in the Guard position. I might switch the hunter and the midfielder because man do I love the hunter. Disclaimer: I am the Siringit player. However, in our games so far the Tantor has been unable to catch up with the targets I most want him on. As soon as another player gets cutblock I think the poor blighter may see a lot of sideline time. Edit: This sort of armchair coaching is a surprisingly fun discussion. Thanks! |
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| Dark Lord |
What do you mean about side without replacement hexes? You can bring in players from either staircase.
If you are talking about the opponent's side, I guess I am still lost. I haven't played Siringit but I haven't seen the Tantor anywhere but the goal tending hex, so I would be interested in your set up. |
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| Cephalopod |
Ok, in regards to the Tantor setup: I did keep him back defending the goal initially but I've had more success using him up front to hit whatever is near my ball carrier. Generally speaking even if he can't help much he provides one Hell of a distraction.
Bear in mind this is only my third game with the Siringit. Previously I was Pharaoh exclusive (well, ok, and I've played as the Widows and Valks... and Desert Dogs). Using the Safety in the Guard hex will be an interesting twist, and one I haven't tried with before (preferring Defenders or Monsters).
I must have misread the rules, but I could have sworn that the side of the field with the Infirmary did not allow for replacement entry... Ok, on rereading it I did mess that up. You can't take players out of the Infirmary was what that meant, not that you couldn't use the Infirmary staircase. Oh Hell, now I have to go fix the Java client as well. 
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| MidniteXpress |
you could use midfielders with your tantor as a hunting pack. the midfielders tie up the target till the big guy gets there. this hunting pack could also work offensively, give the ball to your striker and use the pack as guards. as for the dryads ganging up, I would use the mecats and maybe the hunter to draw them in different directions to create an opening. you're not going to get rid of them so the best you can do is take away some of the assists |
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| Dark Lord |
Well the replacement rules came after the board was designed. Initially the stairs were just aesthetics. | ||||
| Cephalopod |
In the end that was exactly what happened. Two were tied down with a Gorillaur and a Hunter but this only happened once I took out one of them. For some reason I keep rolling 4 or 5 successes on tackles... |
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| Cephalopod |
Well, as promised the color commentary from tonight's game. Bonus points if you can figure out what popular American broadcasters I used to make anagrams of the the names. It was a good game, though ultimately moving my safety up and out of position cost me.
I apologize in advance for misspellings and typos. I haven't proofread this. ---------------------------- The scene: two men sitting a table next to the Elfball pitch. The first, Friar Nodded, is short, dressed in a brown Friar's habit with a scraggly beard. The habit has the letters ECBN written across it in white. Brasher Tawdry is a larger man, with red eyes, a red and flushed face, and thin red hair. He is clearly well into his cups and is turned out in his finest leather armor. Metal studs spell out the letters ECBN across his chest. Friar Nodded: Welcome back fans! We're almost done with the pregame show of the Elfball Crystalmancer Broadcast Network! Today we have a preseason game between the Timberline Backwoods Dodgers and the Stampede from the Siringit plains. Brasher Tawdry: Thats right Father, but before we get to that a word from our sponsors. Zlurpee is announcing their new flavor: Tree Bark Slush! Drink Tree Bark Slush! Anything that tastes this bad must be good for you! Friar Nodded: Thank you Brasher. And now to the action. The teams have taken the field, the Dryad Seleth from the Dodgers has set up in the faceoff circle and the Stampede have placed a... yes, a hippo up front. A surprise decesion by the Stampede coach. Brasher Tawdry: Yes it is! I think the strategy here is to confuse the hippopotamus into believing that the Dryad actually has tasty water lettuce. If it pays off the hippo might consume the Dryad whole and give the Stampede an early numbers advantage. Friar Nodded: That doesn't speak very highly of the Stampede coach, Brasher! Nevermind that, the rest of the team is taking the field. The Dodgers are keeping their visiting star player, Negg the Hunter, back in the goal circle. They've got their thrower and a midfielder on one side of the field while the other side has a hunter and striker. It looks like they're setting up for the classic cross-field alleyoop play! Brasher Tawdry: That is an exciting idea. Just because it hasn't worked yet doesn't mean it won't! On the other side of the field we have the Stampede star player, a Lioness who throws a mean cutblock set up next to a mecat. A baboon safety is guarding the goal deep, and they Hyena thrower and Tantor are across from the Timberline striker and hunter. Friar Nodded: Yes indeed, an interesting setup from the Stampede. It isn't a defense I recognize at all. Oh, and the action is starting! The Stampede have won the faceoff and have pushed the Dryad back out of the faceoff circle. The Lioness has moved up and covered the ball and here comes the Hyena thrower. He puts on some extra speed and makes a grab for the ball... oh, he fumbled the pickup! The ball has slipped right between the Lioness' legs! Brasher Tawdry: An early advantage to the Dodgers! Their midfielder has moved in and picked up the ball and has thrown a lateral to his own thrower, keeping the ball out of harms way. But what's this? The Stampede Lioness has just disembowled the Timberline Dryad! Friar Nodded: Oh the humanity! Oh, by the Nine Gods! There is sawdust and twigs everywhere! Brasher Tawdry: Alaways a risk in these games, Father. Sometimes you get the Lion, sometimes she gets you. Friar Nodded: Well, it appears that the Timberline thrower is taking advantage of the distraction provided by his injured teammate to drive the ball deepper into Stampede territory. Their striker is still in their own backfield but all of that can change in an instant! Brasher Tawdry: No father, it appears that the Hippo wasn't distracted and here it comes... yes, a clean slide tackle and the ball is out. Very impressive form, a solid takedown from behind. The ball is out and the Timberline thrower is showing no desire to stand up with several hundred kilos of enraged hippopotamus standing over him. Friar Nodded: It is hard to blame him, Brasher. It looks like the Stampede thrower is back up in the center of the field but the Timberline hunter is moving in. He sidesteps around and... oh, the thrower is down! The thrower is down! He appears to have been knocked unconscious from the hit. Brasher Tawdry: Oh, and the Lioness has just broken the Timberline hunter's leg! She's on fire! Still, it is a tough break for the Stampede here, Father. That Hyena was the the most skilled player on the field. Friar Nodded: Oh, not for long! The Stampede has just made a substitution. Their Gorillaur has entered the field and scooped up the ball. Deep in his own territory he's keeping the Timberline thrower from taking the ball back. Brasher Tawdry: That doesn't seem to deter the thrower one bit. He's grabbing at the Gorillaur now... oh, a stiff arm and the thrower is down. It appears he just didn't have the momentum to carry off the tackle. Still, you have to admire that kind of fighting spirit in a treehugger like that. Friar Nodded: Absolutely, but it appears to all be for naught. The Gorillaur is throwing a long ball to the Mecat who has been left wide open. He has caught the ball and the little guy is just rushing down the field with it. Brasher Tawdry: Uh oh, Father. He's really turned this game around and caught the Timberline team shorthanded and out of position. They've just made a substitution and have brought in a thrower. Oh, and their goaltender has moved up to go after the Mecat. Friar Nodded: Yes he has, and it looks like the Tantor is heading downfield to help out his little buddy! I wouldn't want to have two tons of enraged pachyderm bearing down on me, Brasher! Brasher Tawdry: Oh, Father, you really don't! Take it from me, you're better off marrying her than keeping her mad at you. It worked for me. Friar Nodded: Brasher, I don't think thats an option here! Oh, but Negg just hit the mecat and knocked the ball lose. It looks like the scoring drive might have been derailed. Brasher Tawdry: Maybe, Father, but the Tantor has come up and... oh, a slide tackle has knocked them both down. The Lioness has joined into the scrum as well. Friar Nodded: Yes indeed and it looks like the Gorillaur and the baboon safety have bothed moved downfield into a scoring position. The Dodgers just have one midfielder there to cover both of them. Brasher Tawdry: It doesn't appear to matter, Friar. The replacement thrower has stepped up and grabbed the ball. The hunter has already started runnin down the field... oh, a bad pass, he's thrown downfield but the ball has landed too far from the goal. The Timberline have also brought on a replacement dryad to shore up their numbers. Friar Nodded: It looks that way. The Lioness looks like she's about ready to to tear off the thrower's head off... oh, no. She stumbles while trying to drive the thrower back. She's down! Brasher Tawdry: Yes she is, and the Timberline Dryad has moved in to cover the baboon safety. It looks like he might not be able to get back to the goal in time to stop a score. Friar Nodded: It will be close, Brasher. Negg has picked up the ball and he's lurching towards the goal circle now. Brasher Tawdry: He certainly is, but look at this the baboon is trying to make a getaway... no! The baboon was tripped up by the Drayd. A rare show of hands on the part of the treefolk! Friar Nodded: Absolutely, and now the hunter is heading towards the goal. No Stampede player will be able to catch him. He... could... go... all... the way... Brasher Tawdry: GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLL! Who's your daddy and what does he do for a living!? The Timberline hunter has scored just as time ran out! |
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| MidniteXpress |
lol great comentary | ||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Very nice!
Galak |
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| Cephalopod |
I told you if I drank I'd write something like that.  All I need now is some alcohol.
We didn't play with the cards, but we did use the other optional rolls. The Tantor up front actually wasn't a bad thing, as it gave me a huge tackler who is a little tougher to take down. The fact that the ball carrier was nearby made the choice a tough one. Go after the Tantor or go after the Mecat? MrC might jump in with his comments, but it was a really fun game. The first thing he did was spread the field as much as possible so that he had big avenues that were relatively free of defenders. This would have been better if I had been a little bit slower as a team. My strategy to have my safety as a goal tender hurt me, but not in the way I expected. Having a goal tender that fast kept tempting me to pull him out of line. I finally did and sure enough the low skill hunter got downfield with the ball. |
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| Cephalopod |
In regards to the last line of the commentary (since I've gotten some feedback) it was originally from Randy Moller, the best sports answer ever:
http://www.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?id=34229 That video will explain all. |
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| MidniteXpress |
do how did you find using the siringit team? i've ordered a siringit team, though mainly because i was born in africa lol | ||||
| Cephalopod |
I'm a big fan of the Siringit, at first for the models but now for the flexibility. They have a position for every need, so you can play just about any game you want to.
However, they don't excel in any one area; if you lose one or two players it can seriously hamper your game. My MVP has definitely been my huntress, but you only get one, for example. Other than that the mecats make for a difficult take down, but you really can't rely on it. In hindsight I should have driven my Tantor downfield first and using him for cover had the mecat set up a relay to my gorillaur, but such is life. |
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| Dark Lord |
The mecats are interesting and I have seen them do some amazing thing...I have also seen them hit the ground...hard. | ||||
| MidniteXpress |
oh i'm not expecting to do great things with my team, i'm somewhat cursed when it comes to dice. i once had my ogre head-but a human catcher only to knock himself out and miss the rest of the season. one of the funniest things i've ever seen playing ff. | ||||
| Dark Lord |
Make your opponent throw the tackles and stuff as often as you can. It's about the only strategy I have carried over from that other game. | ||||
| Cephalopod |
An update on the teams:
Siringit Stampede Timberline Backwoods Dodgers Black Widows Gnomes The last two are as yet unnamed but there you have the teams so far. |
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| GalakStarscraper |
I haven't heard any feedback on someone playing Gnomes yet .. be curious to hear the feedback.
Galak |
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| Dark Lord |
I would love to play gnomes but the price tag is too much for me right now. $57 + $14 for a team when I already have 3 Elfball teams sitting here is something I can't justify...I'm a crappy geek. I'm still hunting for decent kobold minis to make a kobold team.
But they are worth the money and I love the figs...plus the team looks like a riot to play! |
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| Cephalopod |
We're going to substitute deadlings for the time being, but I do plan on picking up the Gnomes soon in any case. I like the little buggers.
Today's practice was sadly a bust. One of our league members decided he did not want to participate after all, as he "already plays too many games". Ah well, everyone has their crippling emotional issues, I guess. |
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| MidniteXpress |
any updates on the league Ceph? | ||||
| Cephalopod |
Patience, my pet. It starts tomorrow. 
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| MidniteXpress |
pet?!?! lol |
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| Cephalopod |
Ok, so today was the first league meet up.
Due to illness or other causes we didn't have two show up. The rest of us rolled on in style. Bear in mind that I am the Siringit player here, so those are the only games I have good records of.
Rules in effect: - 2 Activations per turn - 180 point teams - 90 minute games (no point cap) - Conditionals count as two successes - Accelerated experience (1 for playing, 1 for finishing without conceding, 1 for being on the pitch when your team scores) Ok, so observations. The first two matchups were the Gnomes vs. Timberline and the Siringit vs. Valks. Gnomes vs. Timberline The Gnomes lost on a late score to the Timberline. The Gnomes are bashy as Hell, but some very good Grit rolls on both teams kept it pretty bloodless. Mike, the Gnome player, might have prevented the score but he had pulled his goal tender out of position to hit one elf threatening to score. Another elf ran in and got it. The speed of the gnomes is slow enough that you can thread their backfield but when they do get to hit you it hurts (unless you're Dereck on a high rolling streak, apparently  ).
Siringit vs. Valks Brian is new to the game and wasn't able to attend any practice games previous to the league start. He chose the Valks since they were a well rounded team with moderate skill and tackling power. This game had a couple of big hits (a career ending hit on a Valk Midfielder and a -1 jog on a Siringit Thrower). No scores either, though both sides threatened a couple of times. Flops were to blame there. And now the second set of matches: Timberline vs. Valks Another mostly bloodless match. The Timberline scored early when flops left the Valks out of position. The Valks then threatened the ball deep and had the rolls gone a little better would have tied the game up but time was called when they were pressing for the goal. Gnomes vs. Siringit Wow do I hate the Gnomes. I knew they were bashy but they're really, really rough. I had a Tantor go out (-1 might and retired) after a lot of good rolls from a contraption. This left my backfield wide open. Also my hunter was taken out of the game early by a contraption and I had a career-ending hit on my just-about-to-level defender. Ah well. That being said, my mecats were impervious to any harm they didn't do to themselves via Flops and I got two scores, one with about 15 seconds left on the clock. His bribed ref backfired on the first faceoff so that prevented him from getting a contraption up early from then on. The Siringit also delivered a fair amount of punishment, taking out a contraption (-1 jog and retired) and a couple of gnomes in the game. The score that came down at the last second required a mecat making a pick up, a long throw, and then a Gorillaur making a 3 success catch to score. So there you have it. The gnomes, for all of their casualty causing ability do have trouble winning. They were in scoring positions a couple of times but just could not seem to capitalize on the drive. The dodge 4 does give them the ability to get into tight places but getting the ball or throwing it out is sometimes out of the question if there are any opposing players that can put a +1 success on them. |
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| mattwakeman |
That sounds all really fun mate but how did you all feel about the games themselves? Was Elfball good to play? Does it feel as though you are playing a sports game? Did you all enjoy it?
Oh, and good stuff on the progress on the tool. Every time that I read the boards in Fumbbl and the constant problems that they have with balance then it just makes me hope even more that one day we can have a similar setup but a 'better' game with Elfball. |
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| MidniteXpress |
sounds like the gnome player needs to adjust his tactics. with such a bashy team, i'd create a wall of destruction. forget about passing altogether and keep the wall tightly packed for assists, or to cancel opponent modifiers. stick the ball carrier behind the wall and steadily push your way to the goal. im thinking the flying v from the mighty ducks movies lol | ||||
| brownrob |
i cant really see that working to be honest, as its one player per turn you leave yourself wide open to getting busted and the ball chucked towards a striker the other side of the pitch, that you dont have the speed to get near.
If I was a Gnome player I would probably try to sit back and encourage the opposition to come forward with the ball, then use superior might of the machines to duck out and clobber the opposition, then when i get a good numerical advantage then think about getting the ball up the field! Very basic, but probably wouldnt work either!
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| GalakStarscraper |
Cephalopod are you going to be able to program in the double player movement rules in the computer version (or is that something to come after the basics?) Galak |
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| mattwakeman |
It is going to be very interesting how much of a difference to strategy that the double move will make actually. Will teams be more aggressive in trying to set up positions? Will they take more risks with the first player in order to try and create more momentum for the second (which fixes one of the biggest bugbears that I had with momentum that it dissipates at the end of that players action)?
I can't wait to be able to see plenty of games in action as I can't but help feel as though there just isn't a single way of playing and in fact coaches will have to play games to work out what they feel is right for them and then choose a team accordingly. All good things to think about. |
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| GalakStarscraper |
Momentum is meant to be an individual player incentive. I have to be honest that I'm not a fan of the idea that by having your Deadwood shove someone twice and pick up a lot of Momentum from it that suddenly the Skeleton can tackle better. Galak |
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| mattwakeman |
Oooh, in that case I have read it wrong. But having said that the rules state that, 'Momentum counters always return to zero at the beginning of your opponent's action' (p.5) (emphasis mine). So technically as it stands at the moment momentum gained by one player is still available for the next. And I have to say that I think that I would prefer it to be that way. I don't actually see the problem (from a fluff perspective of course) of players doing better because of something that their teammate does. In my head I have always seen momentum as something that an individual does which the team then benefits from rather than it being something which only affects one player at a time. | ||||
| Cephalopod |
Everyone enjoyed the games, and it certainly does feel like a sports game. We even had a down-to-the-wire score to top it off as well. Seriously, the game is fun and pretty quick. The biggest hurdle is the way that the faceoff works for most people, but once you're used to it the game flows really smoothly. I can't quite put my finger on why that is, but there you have it.
Double player movement will come in after the basics, but it won't be long after the basics that we have it. Momentum dissipates? Huh. Well, something to mention to everyone then... |
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| GalakStarscraper |
"A counter is placed on the Momentum track at zero at the start of each Test and after any action that ends without an event that results in a Shift in Momentum" Galak |
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| mattwakeman |
Thinking about it (and remember this is based on me plucking ideas out of the sky with very little actual Elfball playing experiences so people telling me that I am talking out of my hat I would find hard to argue with) I would actually like to see momentum work more along the lines of: Your momentum carries over but half of it is lost at the end of each players action (so it is a fading burst effect) whereas for a ShiM then you get one(?) free momentum counter only regardless of how much momentum that the other team had. I think that I need to consider the second half of that more than I possibly have but this is how I have always thought momentum would be in a game sense.
Edit: I know that I need to play more before really having an opinion which is based on anything more than reading the rules and plucking assertions out of thin air but whilst I like the concept of momentum I think that it is a shame that it only affects one player at a time. Yes, I know that if you throw a ball to another player then they can benefit from it but in real life (I know, I know) we have all watched team sports where somebody does something and it inspires their team mates. |
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| mattwakeman |
Certainly did. |
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| GalakStarscraper |
Before you tell them that ... hold up. You are the first person to really test the double movement rules. I want to get these right as the Boulder Brawl rules use the double movement rules as the standard rules for playing as one person at a time doesn't work for that game. So my question is this ... do you think its more fun to be able to do simple things to try and build momentum for the player that goes 2nd? If you've found this a fun piece of strategy ... I am more than happy to do a small edit and come out with version 5.2 of the rulebook that changes the line I just quoted to say that it happens at the beginning of your opponent's action instead of the end of any of yours. (right now the rules say it happens in both places). So ... I'm looking for feedback here Celpalopod ... if you tell me that you are not finding it to easy for players with 5 in a stat to do do simple things to build up a lot of momentum that teams without access to stat 5 players cannot duplicate (and thus suffer for it) ... than as long as the balance issue is okay ... I'm fine with going for the rule that is the more fun. Galak |
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| GalakStarscraper |
I personally very much like the risk and reward scenario as Momentum works right now. Don't want to lessen it. Galak |
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| mattwakeman |
A cap on the amount of momentum that a single player can generate perhaps? So glad to be dealing with a guy and a company that actually listens to comments on their game even if they are just random ramblings!! |
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| mattwakeman |
Fair enough. I wonder though whether what is happening here is the split that is taking place between double movement and star=two successes? Maybe if players were using the standard conditional success then carrying over momentum from player to player isn't that big a deal because actions are more risky but if you are using star=two then the pushing deadwood becomes simply too dominant a figure. |
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| GalakStarscraper |
I will admit however that when I play at home we play with the star=two rule as well. We like the speed it gives to resolving the challenges and I have not noticed any Momentum issues caused by this on a single player move style. So it really only comes down to an honest question to Celph here if they've noticed the mix to matter on double move games as I'm quite sure the star=2 doesn't effect single move games adversely. Galak |
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| Cephalopod |
I think it is HUGELY fun to be able to build momentum with one player for the second one. What you do is look at the board, decide "Crap, I need to make a tough tackle with my weaker player. I guess I'm going to have to make a less risky shove with a midfielder first."
So, what happens there is that I will go up and shove, fall flat on my face and cause a SiM, not getting the second activation that I needed to do since I opted to try and make my riskier play easier. Part of the reason we like it is that there are fewer failures. We had a lot of times where entire teams were on the ground and it just wasn't that fun. I haven't noticed that it has been too dominant yet, but we're still getting games in. I can put that cap in place to try it out. So a player can build as much momentum for himself as he wants, but when the next activation starts it drops to a maximum of 3 (or 2). Thinking about it, this would really, really be a good idea. If we need a "real-world" reason (and I don't know why I keep going back to color commentary): "Look at that Bob! The skeleton is stepping up! He's driving the gnome back, clearing a path for the Deadwood. The crowd is going nuts! Oh my! In a surprise move the Deadwood has picked up the ball! He's rumbling down the field! All of this made possible by a surprise shove from the skeleton! Truly a remarkable play." This is similar to how crazy the crowd goes in North American football when a smaller tailback makes a good block or a defensive lineman scoops up the ball and runs down field. Since, at least to my mind, momentum sort of represents a combination of the player's/team's build up from the crowd and their own success. |
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| bouncergriim |
How about you just give the next player the 1/2 the momentum rounded down. That seems to make sense to me. | ||||
| Cephalopod |
That would work as well, I'm just tossing out ideas. | ||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Okay ... I'll see if I can make it fit ... space on the optional rule pages is tight ... I'll see what I can do. Tom |
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| bouncergriim |
I might try to play with these optional rules with a buddy of mine who thinks Elfball takes too long. It is nice to hear about a league actually running. If I knew more gamers in my area I would try to get one going... | ||||
| Cephalopod |
Cool, so we'll run with the updated rules as well and see how it goes. Half rounded down carries over to the next activation. | ||||
| GalakStarscraper |
Galak |
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| Cephalopod |
No problem, though our next league meetup isn't until 3/22.
I'll try and get a couple of practice games in mid-week between now and then. |
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| Cephalopod |
To date he hasn't passed the ball. In fact, I'm having a hard time remembering if he even took a shot at picking up the ball in that second game or if he just marked the ball to make it tough on me. Looking back on it, I think we got exceedingly lucky that the two teams he played didn't get wiped out in short order. Several really good injury rolls (and a couple of Zlurpee kegs) really kept the injuries down. |
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| mattwakeman |
I've been thinking about a lot of this discussion as I was whiling away the hours and I am wondering if we aren't heading down slightly the wrong track with some of these changes. Mainly the link or even better the relationship between star=2 successes and moving two players rather than one.
I can see that if you are playing *=2 (as I shall hence forth write it) then having two players moving in one turn the momentum could well be overkill. But the thing is, that both of these are optional rules though aren't they? One of the things that I like most about Elfball is the uncertainty factor which the conditional successes give you and am rather concerned that the *=2 may well threaten with taking this game rather too closely to the realm of another fantasy sports game in which it is mostly about working out the odds of what it is that you are doing. Now of course you can do the same in this game but only up to a point. If players are being encouraged to move towards conditional successes (as I would think that they are since *=2 is heavily pushed as a beginners rule) then the alterations of momentum when you are playing two players to a turn (which of course is another problem since this is also an optional rule but one in which I can see so many people using it that it may well become the defacto standard...possibly) is almost too harsh. I know that Tom is wary, and rightly so, of having two different mechanics within the game but I really like the possibility of momentum carrying over so I have a proposal. If you are playing *=2 then any momentum that you have is halved (rounded down) at the end of EACH players action. But if you are using conditional then the momentum is only halved at the end of your turn. Does this make sense? Conditional games will generate less momentum purely by the nature of the dice themselves. Of course if you are playing one player move per action then it won't make any actual difference (and in fact if you were then it would be possible to make an argument that conditional and one player per action should carry over all of their momentum but that way lies massive confusion amongst players and Elfball should be quick and fun I feel). Of course, all of this musing may well not be borne out by games themselves and maybe if I played lots of games with conditional dice and looked upon a field with hardly any players standing up I would be singing a different tune with regards to conditional successes but I am strangely worried that one of the most unique elements of the game is being edged out by something that, whilst quicker and allows more success, is somehow less sophisticated. |
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| MrC |
I have played only 4 games of ElfBall using the *=2 + carry over full momentum to the second player. So far, I have not noticed it getting out of hand with too much momentum being passed. I do think it could get too high so I like the idea of 1/2 momentum transfer. Maybe the reason we don't see much momentum transferred is because of how we use the first player. Since I use a non bashy team, I usually am moving my first player into a position to help or up the pitch rather than risk the roll to build momentum. I have flopped too many times on a simple shove to risk it. I feel with the Elves I need to spread it out so when I finally get the ball I have the players in position to score.
I am enjoying the game very much so far but I am sure that will change when Ceph's Siringits kill off my best players. |
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| Cephalopod |
Ha! I think after that last game that Mike's Gnomes will be the real killers. Yea Gods! | ||||
| Dark Lord |
We used the *=2 for awhile but in the end we liked the uncertainty the original way had. It was much more exciting to have those occasions where a 2 dice roll resulted in 6 successes...or where a 3 dice roll of 3 stars ends up with no successes. That sort of fun doesn't happen with *=2.
Where it works well IMO is tournaments, and games where coaches want a bit less randomness. Now Ceph as for your Gnome problem. Just play one game with him where you don't advance into his half of the pitch. Win or lose on the face off, retreat your player back into your half and position your others so that when he brings his first player or players into your half, you strike. Take them down one at a time and don't advance. If he wants to play a game of attrition let him come your players one at a time. Now, I haven't tried this with the 2 at a time movement, so at your own risk. This is another reason we like the cards. With 23 turns there isn't much time to win by attrition. |
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| Cephalopod |
Oh, I don't have a Gnome problem. I can just see some serious potential for the little buggers. Mike is new to the Gnomes but he is a very bright guy. He'll work out some kickass strategy that will get him some wins shortly.
Overall I like our league setup; two wellrounded teams, a bashy team, and a skill team with Dereck's elves. |
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| MidniteXpress |
hmmm optional rules. well i see it as this.
*=2 is a beginners optional rule 2 player activation as an advanced optional rule. personally i wouldn't use both at the same time, and i don't see why momentum would carry over to a second player. doesn't momentum represent an individual player hot streak? |
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| MrC |
I think we used the *=2 for the league because we are beginners and the carry over of momentum was a mistake that we didn't realize was wrong. That being said, as we get more games in, I would have no problem if the other coaches wanted to switch to conditionals. I enjoy the 2 player activations but in the future I will try a single player activation and compare the two. |
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| MidniteXpress |
all optional rule debates aside MrC, did you have fun playing? | ||||
| MrC |
Yes. I have really enjoyed the game so far. | ||||
| Dark Lord |
I'm curious to try the two player activation. Especially combined with our card system. | ||||
| Cephalopod |
Heya MrC. Good to see you join in here.
In our group we started with the single player activation rule. After playing about a dozen times (including an aborted early attempt at a league) we started using the two activation rule and the fun factor went way up. I highly recommend it. Oh, and I intend to introduce your card system in the next league "season". I think I'll have the current season run for 6 league meetups, and then some kind of bowl game. |
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| Cephalopod |
A quick update. He played a game where we halved the momentum. It did have an impact but it wasn't a huge one. It certainly toned down the carry over. We'll try it in the league as a whole this Sunday and see how it goes. | ||||
| Cephalopod |
Just a quick update and feedback on the gnomes. The Gnome player hasn't won a game yet, but he has absolutely caused the most injuries on the pitch. The might 5 is hard to get around, but the tackle 5 is really rough on most players.
The one player that does well against them is a hunter with cutblock (no impact test needed, player goes down regardless of tackle outcome). Unfortunately if you don't roll really well you won't be able to get away on the next turn to cutblock again. |
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| MidniteXpress |
ouch, remind me to avoid little guys in red pointy hats | ||||