Questions about the Tournament

Dark Lord · Questions about the Tournament

I gotta wonder why we only played 1 test/ 1 hour games.
Don't you play for 2 hours in that other game?
Seems like we were very rushed when we didn't need to be.

The face off...boy. Uh it's actually a really nice rule for standard play IMO, but in a tournament where you gain a point for possession it really becomes overly important to win the face off. It almost makes the game a dice game.

And I don't think it speeds anything up that much. Not enough to hinge the outcome on the face-off.

GalakStarscraper

I think the standard face off could be used.

As for time ... I think we assume a different number of folks next year and structure it that way.

However Jessica really didn't like demoing Elfball ... so I have to make sure I get one good Elfball player to demo for Sunday.

Galak

The Warden

Galak-

Ummm.....I do think I maybe scheduled for other things next year

It seems a bit early to decide but my concern would be that elfball is suppose to be a faster game. One test or one hour sounds about right.

A few more experienced players and a little later starting time perhaps

, may make things feel less rushed.

Dark Lord

Lychanthrope

The Streetball tourney was Friday, the FF tourney was Saturday and Sunday, that left Sunday for the Elfball tourney. Scheduling it up agionst the other two tourneys is not, unfortunately, a winning idea at this time. I know Eric might disagree, but I won't make people make a choice at this time.

The winner of the Elfball tourney also won the Streetball tourney and placed very high in FF tourney.

Dark Lord

Well I wouldn't suggest going up against those at any time. But there was lots of time on those days when the tournies weren't going on. The FF tourney ended at what 3pm? Street Brawl as well iirc. What's wrong with starting Elfball (which is gonna be <10 people) at 6pm and running to midnight on thursday? (that's 6 1-hour rounds...or 3 2-hour rounds!) Then playing the final(s) at 6 on Saturday or something if needed? And if you're running 3 2-hour rounds for less than 10 people I can't see needing much more time than that. Especially if you do a single elimination schedule.

I don't think Elfball needs to run up and punch Bl00d B0wl in the face, but I don't think it needs to shove itself in the corner either. And after talking to lots of ex-Bl00d B0wlers while demoing I think the market for Elfball is bigger than people on this board and others assume.

solarflare

Here’s my 2 cents for elfball tournaments at Gencon:
- The cards are a good idea, but it places too much emphasis on winning the face off. Therefore, I think the cards should only be awarded after the fifth turn of the game. That gives each player some time to actually play the game before the cards start being awarded.
- I like playing elfball for just one test against each opponent. It allows more games to be played against more opponents, and it keeps the games moving.
- If you keep the games to one test, you allow the possibility of scheduling elfball in a 4 hour time slot (3 games in 4 hours). This could allow you to run a very different schedule for elfball, which I will now “propose.” (Keep in mind I’m just brainstorming here.)

Run an elfball “mini-tournament” each day of the con. You could go from, say, 6-10pm on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and then from 10-2 on Sunday. Possible advantages to doing it this way:
- The booth is closed during the “tournaments” for all days but Sunday.
- The time slots do not interfere with “The Other Games.”
- The game is being brought out and displayed every day of the con.
- You could have a running “total” displayed at the booth, and there could be a “grand winner” at the end of the con. If you did this, I would also suggest having smaller prizes focused on participation for each mini-tournament. You could also have a prize for “most games played” by the end of the con. Maybe you could track it on this site and have an annual most points and most games played champions (thereby encouraging people to go out and play at other cons?).
- Having multiple mini tournaments could also allow you to throw a little variety in. Maybe no skills on Thursday, one on Friday, etc.

Okay, no more brainstorming for now - my brain is full. (That didn’t take long.)

Dark Lord

I like a lot of those ideas! Very sharp!

I like the idea of progressively more skills, although I think more like increments of 5 is more like Elfball. But I understand you are just brainstorming.

I don't know about tracking after the fifth turn. Then there needs to be something to track turns.

It gets a bit out of hand. Plus I don't like the fact that with the 2 Success on Stars rule a team can just chuck the ball to its monster and ride out the clock. It's sleazy BS like that made me stop playing Bl00d B0wl. Elfball doesn't have that and I'd hate to see it creep in.

But other than that I think you have some winning ideas! I hope Tom agrees.
I think there's also something to having somebody else (Me, Mad Jackal, Lycanthrope...) run the tourney as well as doing it after hours.

Lychanthrope

Dark Lord

bouncergriim

Trying to think of a way to redue the reliance on cards/how long you hold the ball. Perhaps it could be you only get a card for two turns that a single player is holding the ball. Therefore if you toss it back to a big guy and he catches it, you will get one card for him ending the turn holding the ball. Another card the next turn, but no card the following turns unless he passes it to another player. I say two turns because a player can only be activated once every two turns, so that makes the ball more of a hot potato. This might give an advantage to better ball handlers, but it eliminates the stall tactics that we all hate in that other game.

Pros:
1 Eliminates stalling
2 forces more passing
3 more opporunities for SiMs

Cons:
1 may give advantage to high "skill" teams
2 makes keeping track of cards more complicated

Mad Jackal

Actually.

I think I am an idiot.

DL was your record 0 win -1 loss -2 tie or 1-1-1 ?

I don't think the cards mattered that much come to think of it.

My only concern about them would be "rewarding" a team for failing to score quickly by giving them more cards than if they had not failed the 4 dice looking for a 1 roll. (Assuming they end later turns holding the ball again.)

Dark Lord

I beat solarflare's son by a large margin, and I beat you by holding the ball lonnger despite the fact that you controlled the tempo of the game through most of it. I won 2 and lost 1.

Not sure what you mean by 1-1-1 or 0-1-2

The Warden

I think we are getting into "too much of a good thing" here. Mini-tournaments would take a lot of extra time and energy. It would also interfere with other things at the con, not just other FF games. Besides by that time of the day no one from the booth was in the mood to go run a tournament.

I also have to believe that there will be more than 10 people in the tournament next year. So leaving it only on sunday, away from the other games, still probably works the best with a one test/one hour format that allows for several more players to enter.

Adding abilities and too much card playing is most likely going to add time to the tournament. If players are not use to playing with either of those advanced/optional rules sets you are going to make it harder for them to play. This would give additional advantages to more experienced players and not help to get those with little experience interested in playing in the tournament.

Dark Lord

I would be hesitant to play in another tournament with the same rules as this one. If I did, I would just play Deadlings with 2 Deadwoods, 2 Monsters, 1 Vampling, & 1 Zombie and just pitch the ball to a Deadwood and sit on it.

If I don't some other munchkin is sure to.

I hear what you're saying about "too much of a good thing" however, I think too many have a kneejerk reaction against Abilities being an unbalancer. IMO they are not all. And as far as slowing down the game, I have seen just the opposite. Cheapshot moves things along rather quickly!

I think the time of possession rule doesn't work for tourney play.

What about 90 minute tests? I haven't played a test longer than 90 minutes in a very long time.

How about this? Use timers. Each Coach receives 30 minutes (or 45) the coach who runs out of time first is the loser. His opponent receives points equal to the number of whole minutes left on his clock.
The timers we bought can be had for <$3.

The Warden

I think you misunderstood me.

I did not say to play the tournament exactly the same. I just believe that the tournament needs to stick to the basic rules for new players and less experienced coaches. That would mean no additional abilities or card playing.

"too much of a good thing' only had to do with trying to run the tournament for more than one day.

For the first year I think the tournament ran well. It just needs to be 'tweaked' a little for next year.

Mad Jackal

Dark Lord

It was your math.

I didn't read the point system before I attended.

If you want to say I placed third, I don't mind. I wasn't really concerned with how I placed or else I would have used my Black Widows and kept the gift certificate.

Mad Jackal

aye. I am to take that answer as "no Dark Lord did not score at all during the tornament".

Well for realities sake I'll post the correct math so every-one can see what we are talking about.
Once I dig up the numbers.

Dark Lord

I don't recall if I scored against Cal or not, I think I may have. It was a brutal game and completely one sided. It's entirely possible that I did, I just can't remember. Maybe Solarflare can ask him?

How I placed in the tourney has no bearing on what I thought of the rules tho, or how I think we should change them. Scoring more points than you in our game is what didn't sit well with me. I admitted you should have been 2nd place and I gave you my gift certificate to soothe your obvious bitterness. So no matter what the numbers say I think there should be a change.

Whether or not I scored against Cal is irrelevant IMO. The tourney rules encourage the mad dash for the ball mentality that creates games of Elfball that I dubbed clusterfuggs. You never get beyond the scrum because winning the scrum is all that matters. In our games players back off of the scrum because once someone has possession it's easier to score by then worrying about position. I'm not willing to just back off and allow my opponent to rack up cards, because I'm not guaranteed a score at the end of the game.

The problem is that when you are rewarded for time of possession and the test are gonna be so short you have no choice but to employ that strategy. It makes for a dull game IMO. The games I played in the tourney weren't nearly as satisfying as the games we play here.

Dark Lord

To get back on topic...

One of the reason I suggested a card system like mine, isn't just vanity...although there probably is that for sure

, What it does is add in some fun random elements that don't really affect the game much, and but it then rewards the person who got the least of those random elements.

Not only that but a deck of 52-54 cards also keeps the game time more consistent. 52 turns at 1 minute per turn means 1 hour games. You could time the turns or just estimate. I don't think most turns go over a minute away.

If you want to simplify it for the new people then remove the whole 4-5 cards in your hand thing. You draw a card at the start of your turn and that card is played on that turn, whether it's useful or not. That's probably the best way to have the least impact on the game anyway.

And it's no more complicated than drawing a card for possession. In fact I would say it's simpler. I would even volunteer to create the cards for the tourney for free.

Mad Jackal

Dark Lord

I don't think anyone is confused on the fact that scoring for possession, and the fast face-off rules aren't too fun for a tournament.

Analyze them all you want, heck they may turn out to be a completely accurate way to rank play...but are they fun? No. I think that's unanimous. Not to say that I didn't have fun...but I can see these rules being easily exploited by munchkins and they bring to Elfball a style of play that is a major negative in that other game.

That's why I say that I don't even see it as relevant. If I didn't score on Cal I was within 2 turns of it. If I did the game against you still proves all on it's own that the points for possession is out of whack. I played very poorly in that game and had some critical rolls fail to make things worse and yet I came away scoring more points than you? That's broken. No further analysis needed. IMO.

Also as far as the Elfball tourney vs the Bl00d B0wl tourney. I don't know about next year but I can see a time when the two could run side by side and it wouldn't much matter. I had 3 demos where the people said that they quit playing Bl00d B0wl and were looking for something new. I also had a couple groups of people come and say they were deciding between both games to start a league...and I think I sold them all on Elfball.

There's overlao in the fanbase for sure, but from I have seen the current Bl00d B0wl people don't take it seriously, and I don't see many of them entering the tournament anyway. I don't mean we should run it directly opposite, but I don't think Elfball should be relegated to Sunday morning for fear of disturbing their peace either.

Like I said, I don't think Elfball should run up and punch Bl00d B0wl in the nose, but it has a growing fan base and doesn't need to hide from the competition either.

Dark Lord

I'm splitting this in two because I think I have a good idea.

IMO there are a couple ways to go about this and I really think some people are over thinking it. IMO if you get more than 6 but less than 18 players for the tourney you should just do a single elimination tournament. That can be done in 4 rounds and only the top players are there for the longest time. For tie breakers use the timers, my cards, or just a final face off challenge. Or the idea below. Also, you could do the mini tourney style with this and have 2 rounds one day and two rounds the next.
Also instead of possession score one point for every point of momentum you give up at then end of your turn. Meaning you end your turn without a SiM and you have 4 momentum. You scored 4 points that turn.

Actually I kinda like that idea.

Momentum is an accurate way of measuring performance because that's already what it does. This also adds a function to all that Momentum that goes away at the end of a turn AND it really makes SiM's painfully funny!
All teams earn momentum for the things they are good at so there wouldn't be an advantage for bashy teams or agility teams. The bashy team can try to hold the ball with a Deadwood all they want...the dodge types can just start disengaging and the pushy guys can shove people around.

If you placed a note pad next to the Momentum track with two columns and just jot down your number when you reset the track to zero it would be easy as well.

What do you think?

bouncergriim

I like the momentum idea for points. It would also encourage more pushing and less killing, because it is easy to get momentum from pushes and harder to get it from tackles and injuries. It also encourages riskier actions. You get no momentum from moving, but can get it if you are willing to roll dice.

The only advantage I see here is that high jog teams can roll more dice, but I think SiM takes care of that.

solarflare

I forgot to check with Cal about the score, but I remember that, while DL had control of the game and the ball, the clock ran out before he actually scored. (Something to do with that mummy moving sooo slow...)

Also, I like the idea of momentum for points, as well. But I think I'd limit it to one per turn. I also like the idea of getting a card each turn (after the initial face-off turn) that you move a player that is holding the ball.

Lychanthrope

I like the quick face off rules. I didn't get to play with the points for posession so I really can't comment. Having said all that I almost always prefer vanilla rules to all the chaos crap people want to add. House rule at home all you want DL, but at this point I'm really not interested playing that way.

I've really enjoyed playing Elfball against my daughter at home with the rules as written. I don't want to play with all the changes your league has added, that's not EB to me. I'll also say I don't thnk it's EB to anybody that shows up at a tourney other then people form your league. Play however you like, but don't expect us/some of us to want to follow suit. NO attack here just opion.

I am curious how many points people got for posession per game. Seeing how there is 100 points for a score I don't see posession points to be adding up to much in comparison.

GalakStarscraper

My thought on scoring after thinking about this for a couple days:

1) 100 points for a goal
2) 2 points for each player in the Infirmary box (for whatever reason)
3) 2 points for each turn the ball handler cross the middle line into the opposing half (standing on the line does not count) OR you successfully pass the ball through the center hex into the opposing half
4) 1 points for each turn you end with 1 or more Momentum left AND have not ended your turn with a SiM.
5) -2 points for each turn the ball handler cross the middle line to carry the ball back into your own half OR you successfully pass the ball through the center hex into your own half.

As for quick rules.

I think we go back to the normal Elfball rules for the Face-off ... but we keep the Stars count as 2 successes.

I think these rules would encourage a much more agressive play style that we are looking for.

Galak

Lychanthrope

I can live with that.

Dark Lord

Hey Lycan I wasn't saying that that's how we play here.

I was just coming up with rules for scoring that wouldn't encourage what we saw at the tournament.

What is Elfball is to me is a fast paced game where every turn and every dice roll matters and has some tension...if not some then lots!

What we played at the tournament was more like that other game...a game where you look for the best way to exploit the broken parts of the rules and the way to win isn't necessarily exciting or tense...nay usually it's dull, cheap and only satisfying to those who enjoy sitting on goal lines while they pummel teams. So if my game against Cal was called on time I took third, but the fact of the matter is that a score was not far off.
Nothing in that game was exciting, not for me and not for Cal. I held the ball, collected cards and pummeled him. It was only when I heard MJ barking about time that I decided to score.

The game against solarflare was great but he cleaned my clock!

and the game against MJ was more like the game against Cal. He penetrated my half and started racking up casualties so I just held the ball and decided to outlast him. He won that game but in the end I had more points. That was wrong...and more for just evaluation purposes. The tone of my games against Cal and MJ didn't feel like Elfball to me.

I don't know what your home Elfball games are like but ours are reasonably close to the vanilla rules and they are nothing like Bl00d B0wl. The game at the tourney felt more like Bl00d B0wl to me.

I understand if you don't like the rules I suggested but I fail to see how taking the house rule that Tom used and repacing it with the Momentum house rule I suggested is something so radically different...or how I am trying to force anyone to play it.

I think I may not have expressed my ideas clearly enough or something.

I don't care if you use my idea or not. I thought it was a good and I tossed it out. I meant for it to replace the reward for possession since retaining possession rewards some teams more than others. That was the rule that I think most people in the tourney took issue with.

That and the quick face off rule are all I took issue with...and those were not vanilla rules.

Lychanthrope

Good points DL

I really should have stayed and watched more games to see how they panned out. And yes, holding onto the ball to get the win rather then tring to score wouldn't be fun, or even fair depending on what races we're talking about. I may hae to try a few games with tourney rules with my daughter, after soccer season is over, to see how they play.

GalakStarscraper

Since this moved onto page 4 ... I quoting myself to keep my thoughts on the current page.

Dark Lord

Lycan, I don't want you or anyone to feel like I'm devaluing their opinions because of play time. Heck, solarflare demolished us all with very little EB experience.

I would like to see Impact side step the pitfall the the other game made. I think it's perfectly acceptable for a tournament ruleset to be different from a league ruleset.

But that doesn't mean I think it has to be either. In my league we run very nearly vanilla rules. We house rule a couple things but that's it and we frequently come in with 1 hour scores, so IMO (and my opinion only) that the game could have 90 minute rounds and see lots of scores.

In the end I don't care if it's my idea that gets used or not. I just don't care for points based systems that value one style of play over another. Deadlings, Razorbacks, Gnomes, and others can score they just take longer than Elves, Black Widows, and the more agility minded teams.

In my dream world I like an elimination style tournament with a simple system for tie breakers because I feel it's more beneficial to everyone equally.
Which is why I suggested Momentum as the only measure. All teams earn momentum...they just earn it for different things. A Razorback isn't gonna earn momentum for picking up the ball, but an elf will. But an elf isn't gonna earn momentum for shoving, where a Deadwood will.

Dark Lord

Mad Jackal

Dark Lord

Moving two players per turn. It's meant to facilitate scoring.

It's an optional rule. It didn't appeal to me at first but the more I think about it the more I like it.

It's one of those things that just feels "wrong" at first, and probably only because of Bl00d B0wl...but the more I think about it the more it seems to fit Elfball's style...or my perception of the style.

Edit:

Mad Jackal

Dark Lord

Oh. I see. Sorry about that.

I had a very late night (3am) and woke up to the city trimming trees outside my window at 7am.

I probably shouldn't be on the forums...I'm grumpy and stupid this morning.

(fixed. it)

The Warden

Tom I have to agree.

What you came up with is a balance for ball handling, tackling, and good dice rolls. Seems a good compromise and should be able to keep the play time about right.

Brilliant, as usual

GalakStarscraper

SillySod

GalakStarscraper

Dark Lord