Secret Weapon/ Referee Discussion

Dark Lord · Secret Weapon/ Referee Discussion

As I was copying and pasting Tom's Gencon rules to Board Game Geek my eye caught the bit about drawing a card for every turn you end while holding the ball and I had an idea.

Two of the most common criticisms of Elfball (especially from the Bl00d B0wl camp) is that the insanity is missing and that it takes too long. I argue with the latter point but no the former.

But what if, like in the optional rule, you drew a card from a stack BEFORE every turn (instead of after) AND on that card was a random event? Now since this would be every turn they would need to be very minimal effects like +1 Jog for that turn, or +1 Momentum for that turn, Refresh Cheerleaders used that Test, Cheapshot for that turn etc.
But you could also make 3 or 4 cards become something sweet like +6 Momentum, or one player who is injured is miraculously cured and moves to the bench, or a free Zlurpee Keg or Potion.

Alternatively you could decide on a predetermined number of turns and create custom decks to be used before the game.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

Dark Lord

You could also force a draw at the start of each turn and say each player could have a hand of no more than 5 cards or so. Cards can be played one time at any point during your turn.

I know this is something that the boys at Impact aren't gonna jump on but I think in my spare time I might come up with a list of 60 cards and make a PDF.

SillySod

I like it, it would make a neat variant and you could do some fun stuff with it. However I'd suggest leaving most of the cards blank, throw in some stuff like a single momentum or jog boost and then think of some random events that wont be too game turning... perhaps weather could be introduced to the game this way (if the deck is sfficiently large to make weather a rare event). This is also the sort of thing that the Elfball client could have added fairly easily.

I dont think I'd want it to be a core part of the rules but if the events are sufficiently spread out then I'd really fancy a go with those rules for a laugh sometime.

Dark Lord

Something like:

60 Cards

40 Blanks
15 Random Events (+1 Jog, +1 Momentum etc)
5 Rare Events weather effect, miraculous recovery, full Momentum etc.

Thom

I think your on to something here sir! The game does seem to be missing some of the insane "Waaahoooo!" that Gramma's game is famous for, and while I understand the desire to have a unique flavor I do think it needs some "Waaahoooo" inSanity.

This seems like a good effort towards answering that.

Dark Lord

This and/or chainsaws and bombs IMO.

I wrote up some rules for secret weapons but they need a little refinement and at least a token playtesting.

Basically they work like this: A player may use 5 goal points to change his Type to Cheater. And then the secret weapons are all Advanced Cheater skills.
There are also mercenary goblins available that have a weapon, however they don't gain goal points.
So teams who start with a Cheater player can get him a weapon at 10 goal points.
Teams without a Cheater player can get a weapon on a player when he reaches 15 goal points. Or they can hire a goblin to even the odds for one game. Price of the goblin is undecided but probably 25 or 30 points.

bouncergriim

Coul always use a regular deck, number cards = blanks, Face cards of each suit have different attributes they affect like jack +1 jog, club +1 might, heart +1 tackle, spade + 1 dodge etc. Then have aces be the really special cards.

bouncergriim

Thom

Now your cooking with diesel fuel! Bombs, Slingshots, Bricks, Bottles, Whips and so forth!

I have been tinkering with an idea for Ref Rules which could plug in here as well. . .

Dark Lord

The weapons I wrote rules for are pretty much influenced by that other game, with the intention that the models could be used as proxies, but I added a few of my own that I would like to see.

I did:
Chainsaws
Pogo Sticks
Shanks (daggers)
Shuriken
Wrist Crossbows
War Hammers
Boomsticks (blunderbuss)
Bombs
Flails

I also included rules for referees. You make a referee challenge. Number of dice rolled is weapon's power + referee's rating. The ref's rating depends on his race.

These are just some things I knocked together to make a sample PDF for my portfolio. Tom has yet to green light anything and also has his own ideas, they may or may not ever see the light of day.

However with Tom's blessing I will email the PDF to anyone interested. (after I make a few adjustments)

duttydave

In my own humble opinion, I wouldn't like to see cards introduced as a compulsory part of the game. I prefer the randomness of the game as it is without adding cards to the mix. I would have no problem with them being an optional variant to be used if both players agree.

On the other hand I like the Secret Weapons idea. In Street Brawl a Team may take a Chainsaw Maniac so why not Elfball? It would also open up some good conversion opportunites for some of the models. Better still we may even see some new Impact Models with the Secret Weapons.

Star Players are another thing that I'd like to see. I believe that Galak has mentioned in another Thread that this is a distinct possibility in the future. There are already models for Bazooka Jo-Nome and a Half-Dwarf Star, we just need the rules to flesh them out.

Darkson

No stars for me, even as an optional.
Want a star player? Build your own.

Cards for randomness as an option sound like fun to me though.

Dark Lord

Darkson

Norse

er.. it's been an age since I played my own company's game.. do we really have skills called "Buff" and "Plough"??

maybe Tom should spend less time watching "those" types of movie..

Thom

I envision Refs as being the EB equivelent of "Star Players". While the specific particular mini's could be used for each ref, really a generic figure could work for most occasions to represent whichever ref is drawn.

For example:

1: Two refs would be required, one on each side of the field. Each player would place a ref on the side of their opponents goal area in a hex of their choosing.

2: Refs must have clear line of sight to observe and infraction, too many players, of either/or/both teams, in the way could screen observation. Facing counts for the same reason, a ref looking the wrong way cannot observe an infraction.

3: Each Ref has a unigue personality and/or quirk.

A: Female ref, half the time she is likely to ignore an infraction committed by a female player.

B: Boy scout, CANNOT be bribed, calls it straight down the line.

C: Imp/Orc, favors greenies and half the time will ignore infractions.

D: Gruff retired bully, anyone entering an adjacent hex is automaticly tackled and must face a challenge (rolled by the opposing player).

F: Corrupt, can be bribed and addtional time (By either or both teams) and can be paid to make a FAKE CALL once per game for each team instead of ignoring an infraction.

Ok then I think you get the idea here, Refs like the Pistol Wielding female might shoot anyone who gets to close or who she catches breaking a rule. A list of available ref minis might be compiled with several personalities created for each. As stated before the exact mini is not required, just a representative figure but each ref is rolled (From the list) for before the start of the game. Previously putrchased bribes could be effected by the outcome of the roll, for example if you draw Boy Scout, they would be forfiet and unusable, but if you drew Corrupt you might by a second bribe if you had the points to spare. It adds an element of random "WaaHoooness" that I have been searching for. . .

Dark Lord

Here's an excerpt from my rules.

Referees
"The level of cheating you want in your game can be regulated by the choice of referee for the match. Eye Tyrants are notoriously watchful and sticklers for the rules. It will be very difficult to get away with cheating when a Eye Tyrant is in charge of the game. On the other hand Goblins love to watch chaos and destruction and their ideas about rules and cheating are very fluid. Both coaches must agree to a Referee before the match. If a referee can’t be agreed on then both coaches roll a 1D6 and the high roller chooses.

Eye Tyrant: (Referee Rating: 4) These magical beasts were spawned long ago in the dens of the Night Elf sorcerers and have since developed their own society. They resemble a large floating orb, covered in eye stalks with a large central eye (not on a stalk) just above a toothy gaping maw. These beasts are highly intelligent, sadistic and cruel. They know the rules of Elfball like no other and will not tolerate cheating!

Elf: (Referee Rating 3) Elves have a great situational awareness and excellent peripheral vision. All that and their highly intelligent and logical brains makes them great for referee duty.

Human: (Referee Rating 2) Humans don’t have the excellent vision or logic of the Elves and Eye Tyrants but what they do have is a good sense of fairness and justice. Humans also have a latent empathic ability to know when somebody is lying. They also have the benefifit of being much more numerous than Elves and the magical Eye Tyrants.

Dwarf: (Referee Rating: 1) Dwarfs, while obtuse and immutable, can be very analytical and logical when it comes to rules. On the other hand Dwarfs are notoriously near-sighted and love nothing more than a good explosion. A Dwarf referee is likely to enforce most of the rules but just as likely to turn a blind eye at obvious infraction just because it made a nice “boom.”

Goblin: (Referee Rating: 0) Goblins play by their own moral code and look at rules in a completely different way than most humanoids. They see the rules as things that are meant to be broken…but even that is an understatement. Goblins see rule breaking as an art form and the referee is there to reward or penalize the performance.

Once a referee is chosen he is the referee for the entire match and cannot be changed. When a team comes “under scrutiny” they place the appropriate referee miniature in their dugout or infirmary.

Weapon Power
Each secret weapon has a power rating. This represents how much of a potential effect it has in the game and how easy it is for the referee to spot its use. The power ratings are 1, 2, 3 and 4. A rating of 1 is for inconspicuous or non-lethal weapons like shanks and pogo sticks. A rating of 2 is for weapons that are little more deadly or maybe just a bit louder like war hammers and boomsticks. A rating of 3 is reserved for the weapons that are loud, nasty and deadly. Only the most foul and blatant cheaters use thigs like chainsaws and bombs! Finally, only the Impcrusher has a rating of 4 which is because it’s a complete death machine! A weapon’s power is combined with the referee’s rating to determine the number of dice that are rolled for the Referee Challenge.

Referee Challenge
The rules of Elfball do not explicitly ban weapons from the field of play, however they do penalize players who use weapons; a very finicky difference to be sure, but after years of debate that is how it was settled. (Mainly because the league commissioners know that explosions and violence put butts in the seats!) Once the cheater’s action is completed
but before his opponent begins his team’s turn the opposing Team Manager can make a Referee Challenge. He rolls a number Challenge Dice equal to the Referee’s rating plus the Power Rating of the secret weapon used,and looks up the result on the Referee Challenge table.
(Note that the timing of this is important. If the cheater has not suffered a Shift in Momentum and still has Momentum remaining he can use it affect the Referee Challenge, but if he has suffered a Shift in Momentum it’s his opponent who can manipulate the Challenge.)

Thom

There should also be a mechanic for "Taking Out" a ref, to deliberately attack him in the hopes of removing him from the game, failure would mean the attacking player(s) would be ejected, success would mean that side of the field would become more chaotic if out of the other ref's line of sight.

Dark Lord

The ONLY thing I don't like about your rules Thom is that the Ref (especially the one with the threat zone) can be an obstacle to prevent scoring. In a game where getting to that one hex with the ball is a real challenge anyway the ref's presence might affect the game in a serious way.

There's also the fact that I would start each game by tackling, chainsawing, stabbing and fouling the ref on my side of the pitch into oblivion. Then sit and wait for the opponent to come down and block the other ref's POV so I could saw the crap out of anyone who got close to my goal.

Otherwise great ideas!

There's two of the thing that I am very proud of in my rules. One is the fact that the ref challenge has the possibility of banning cheaters for life. This is especially dangerous if the cheater suffers a shift in momentum. (IMO that other game could use more solutions within the rules rather than percentage tweaking.)
And second I am proud of the fact that none of the weapons use challenges (except bombs which I am fixing) so there can be no momentum gained from cheating.

So a team could invest 30 points to get a chainsaw (that's almost 20% of the team's total value!) and another 10 or 15 points to get him Abilities like Malicious and Ruthless (or even Resilient) to make him a fouling machine but all that is only gonna result in his eventual banishment from the league.
A chainsaw player who attacks and kills an opponent in a game with a Beholder ref is looking at a coach rolling 7 dice to get 1 success.
Even with a human ref it's 5 dice for 1 success.

How many times can he do that before the opponent rolls 6 or more successes?

Keep it coming, I like the flavor your ideas, but IMHO they would be easily exploited or nullified.

SillySod

Interestingly the card system would apply very very well to my current project, thanks :)

Dark Lord

Current project?

Tell us more, si vous plait.

brownrob

I think those ref rules are on to something Eric! Its very befitting of a sports game that refs are different, especially in football (european) where sometimes a referee may give a player 3 yellow cards when they were supposed to be sent off on 2

Do you think it could be used in conjunction with the setting up of monsters in the faceoff area etc?

GalakStarscraper

Dark Lord

Thom

ON reflection I can see our ideas mesh fairly well with just a few points to take issue with.

I do like the idea of the ref becoming an obsticle, an actual participant in the game in that respect. As for taking them out and screening "Line of Sight" (LoS), that is a valid tactic, but if you fail to take him out, you leave yourself short handed on the field, and the bodies committed to set up in the screen may not be available to do other things you might need them for!

30 points seems like a really spendy chainsaw!

And of course the ref list/roster would have to be adjusted and tinkered with, if having a threat zone is too unbalancing then it should be avoided, but I do think it adds a lot of that "WaaHoooness" that I want.

Dark Lord

For now I'd like to keep the cards and weapon discussion separate.

All discussion of cards can go here.
http://artistsunited.myfreeforum.org/sutra23069.php#23069