IMPACT! MINIATURES

The Warden · Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:12 am Post subject:

I think you misunderstood me.

I did not say to play the tournament exactly the same. I just believe that the tournament needs to stick to the basic rules for new players and less experienced coaches. That would mean no additional abilities or card playing.

"too much of a good thing' only had to do with trying to run the tournament for more than one day.

For the first year I think the tournament ran well. It just needs to be 'tweaked' a little for next year.

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Mad Jackal · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 240

Dark Lord · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2682

It was your math.

I didn't read the point system before I attended.

If you want to say I placed third, I don't mind. I wasn't really concerned with how I placed or else I would have used my Black Widows and kept the gift certificate.
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Mad Jackal · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 240

aye. I am to take that answer as "no Dark Lord did not score at all during the tornament".

Well for realities sake I'll post the correct math so every-one can see what we are talking about.
Once I dig up the numbers.

Dark Lord · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2682

I don't recall if I scored against Cal or not, I think I may have. It was a brutal game and completely one sided. It's entirely possible that I did, I just can't remember. Maybe Solarflare can ask him?

How I placed in the tourney has no bearing on what I thought of the rules tho, or how I think we should change them. Scoring more points than you in our game is what didn't sit well with me. I admitted you should have been 2nd place and I gave you my gift certificate to soothe your obvious bitterness. So no matter what the numbers say I think there should be a change.

Whether or not I scored against Cal is irrelevant IMO. The tourney rules encourage the mad dash for the ball mentality that creates games of Elfball that I dubbed clusterfuggs. You never get beyond the scrum because winning the scrum is all that matters. In our games players back off of the scrum because once someone has possession it's easier to score by then worrying about position. I'm not willing to just back off and allow my opponent to rack up cards, because I'm not guaranteed a score at the end of the game.

The problem is that when you are rewarded for time of possession and the test are gonna be so short you have no choice but to employ that strategy. It makes for a dull game IMO. The games I played in the tourney weren't nearly as satisfying as the games we play here.
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Dark Lord · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2682

To get back on topic...

One of the reason I suggested a card system like mine, isn't just vanity...although there probably is that for sure

, What it does is add in some fun random elements that don't really affect the game much, and but it then rewards the person who got the least of those random elements.

Not only that but a deck of 52-54 cards also keeps the game time more consistent. 52 turns at 1 minute per turn means 1 hour games. You could time the turns or just estimate. I don't think most turns go over a minute away.

If you want to simplify it for the new people then remove the whole 4-5 cards in your hand thing. You draw a card at the start of your turn and that card is played on that turn, whether it's useful or not. That's probably the best way to have the least impact on the game anyway.

And it's no more complicated than drawing a card for possession. In fact I would say it's simpler. I would even volunteer to create the cards for the tourney for free.
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Mad Jackal · Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 240

Dark Lord · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2682

I don't think anyone is confused on the fact that scoring for possession, and the fast face-off rules aren't too fun for a tournament.

Analyze them all you want, heck they may turn out to be a completely accurate way to rank play...but are they fun? No. I think that's unanimous. Not to say that I didn't have fun...but I can see these rules being easily exploited by munchkins and they bring to Elfball a style of play that is a major negative in that other game.

That's why I say that I don't even see it as relevant. If I didn't score on Cal I was within 2 turns of it. If I did the game against you still proves all on it's own that the points for possession is out of whack. I played very poorly in that game and had some critical rolls fail to make things worse and yet I came away scoring more points than you? That's broken. No further analysis needed. IMO.

Also as far as the Elfball tourney vs the Bl00d B0wl tourney. I don't know about next year but I can see a time when the two could run side by side and it wouldn't much matter. I had 3 demos where the people said that they quit playing Bl00d B0wl and were looking for something new. I also had a couple groups of people come and say they were deciding between both games to start a league...and I think I sold them all on Elfball.

There's overlao in the fanbase for sure, but from I have seen the current Bl00d B0wl people don't take it seriously, and I don't see many of them entering the tournament anyway. I don't mean we should run it directly opposite, but I don't think Elfball should be relegated to Sunday morning for fear of disturbing their peace either.

Like I said, I don't think Elfball should run up and punch Bl00d B0wl in the nose, but it has a growing fan base and doesn't need to hide from the competition either.

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Dark Lord · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2682

I'm splitting this in two because I think I have a good idea.

IMO there are a couple ways to go about this and I really think some people are over thinking it. IMO if you get more than 6 but less than 18 players for the tourney you should just do a single elimination tournament. That can be done in 4 rounds and only the top players are there for the longest time. For tie breakers use the timers, my cards, or just a final face off challenge. Or the idea below. Also, you could do the mini tourney style with this and have 2 rounds one day and two rounds the next.
Also instead of possession score one point for every point of momentum you give up at then end of your turn. Meaning you end your turn without a SiM and you have 4 momentum. You scored 4 points that turn.

Actually I kinda like that idea.

Momentum is an accurate way of measuring performance because that's already what it does. This also adds a function to all that Momentum that goes away at the end of a turn AND it really makes SiM's painfully funny!
All teams earn momentum for the things they are good at so there wouldn't be an advantage for bashy teams or agility teams. The bashy team can try to hold the ball with a Deadwood all they want...the dodge types can just start disengaging and the pushy guys can shove people around.

If you placed a note pad next to the Momentum track with two columns and just jot down your number when you reset the track to zero it would be easy as well.

What do you think?
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bouncergriim · Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 298 Location: Fort Worth, TEXAS

I like the momentum idea for points. It would also encourage more pushing and less killing, because it is easy to get momentum from pushes and harder to get it from tackles and injuries. It also encourages riskier actions. You get no momentum from moving, but can get it if you are willing to roll dice.

The only advantage I see here is that high jog teams can roll more dice, but I think SiM takes care of that.

solarflare · Joined: 28 Sep 2006 Posts: 16 Location: indy

I forgot to check with Cal about the score, but I remember that, while DL had control of the game and the ball, the clock ran out before he actually scored. (Something to do with that mummy moving sooo slow...)

Also, I like the idea of momentum for points, as well. But I think I'd limit it to one per turn. I also like the idea of getting a card each turn (after the initial face-off turn) that you move a player that is holding the ball.

Lychanthrope · Joined: 22 Nov 2006 Posts: 367 Location: Bristol, IN USA

I like the quick face off rules. I didn't get to play with the points for posession so I really can't comment. Having said all that I almost always prefer vanilla rules to all the chaos crap people want to add. House rule at home all you want DL, but at this point I'm really not interested playing that way.

I've really enjoyed playing Elfball against my daughter at home with the rules as written. I don't want to play with all the changes your league has added, that's not EB to me. I'll also say I don't thnk it's EB to anybody that shows up at a tourney other then people form your league. Play however you like, but don't expect us/some of us to want to follow suit. NO attack here just opion.

I am curious how many points people got for posession per game. Seeing how there is 100 points for a score I don't see posession points to be adding up to much in comparison.
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GalakStarscraper · The Big Man Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 6176

My thought on scoring after thinking about this for a couple days:

1) 100 points for a goal
2) 2 points for each player in the Infirmary box (for whatever reason)
3) 2 points for each turn the ball handler cross the middle line into the opposing half (standing on the line does not count) OR you successfully pass the ball through the center hex into the opposing half
4) 1 points for each turn you end with 1 or more Momentum left AND have not ended your turn with a SiM.
5) -2 points for each turn the ball handler cross the middle line to carry the ball back into your own half OR you successfully pass the ball through the center hex into your own half.

As for quick rules.

I think we go back to the normal Elfball rules for the Face-off ... but we keep the Stars count as 2 successes.

I think these rules would encourage a much more agressive play style that we are looking for.

Galak

Lychanthrope · Joined: 22 Nov 2006 Posts: 367 Location: Bristol, IN USA

I can live with that.
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Dark Lord · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2682

Hey Lycan I wasn't saying that that's how we play here.

I was just coming up with rules for scoring that wouldn't encourage what we saw at the tournament.

What is Elfball is to me is a fast paced game where every turn and every dice roll matters and has some tension...if not some then lots!

What we played at the tournament was more like that other game...a game where you look for the best way to exploit the broken parts of the rules and the way to win isn't necessarily exciting or tense...nay usually it's dull, cheap and only satisfying to those who enjoy sitting on goal lines while they pummel teams. So if my game against Cal was called on time I took third, but the fact of the matter is that a score was not far off.
Nothing in that game was exciting, not for me and not for Cal. I held the ball, collected cards and pummeled him. It was only when I heard MJ barking about time that I decided to score.

The game against solarflare was great but he cleaned my clock!

and the game against MJ was more like the game against Cal. He penetrated my half and started racking up casualties so I just held the ball and decided to outlast him. He won that game but in the end I had more points. That was wrong...and more for just evaluation purposes. The tone of my games against Cal and MJ didn't feel like Elfball to me.

I don't know what your home Elfball games are like but ours are reasonably close to the vanilla rules and they are nothing like Bl00d B0wl. The game at the tourney felt more like Bl00d B0wl to me.

I understand if you don't like the rules I suggested but I fail to see how taking the house rule that Tom used and repacing it with the Momentum house rule I suggested is something so radically different...or how I am trying to force anyone to play it.

I think I may not have expressed my ideas clearly enough or something.

I don't care if you use my idea or not. I thought it was a good and I tossed it out. I meant for it to replace the reward for possession since retaining possession rewards some teams more than others. That was the rule that I think most people in the tourney took issue with.

That and the quick face off rule are all I took issue with...and those were not vanilla rules.

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