Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: Standing a Player Up
Hello
On p5 of the 5.1 Rulebook regarding a Down player it states that "When a Down player succesfully performs his Get-Up challenge, place him standing in the Hex he is in."
A further paragraph says that a Down player can spend 5 Jog Paces less his Grit to stand up and a Dazed player 8 paces less Grit.
Does that mean that if my player is Down I can opt to do a Get-Up challenge Or pay 5 Jog paces less Grit to stand up instead?
I'm guessing the Get-Up challenge is now obsolete and that the reference to it was overlooked when the rules were updated. Is that right?
Just noticed that the Get-Up challenge has gone. Is it an intention of this rule that a Gnomish Contraption which is dazed cannot stand up without being assisted? If so then this will also have some issues when players start to pick up some injuries and can no longer get up of their own accord.
Just noticed that the Get-Up challenge has gone. Is it an intention of this rule that a Gnomish Contraption which is dazed cannot stand up without being assisted?
Yes this is intentional.
Quote:
If so then this will also have some issues when players start to pick up some injuries and can no longer get up of their own accord.
Yup ... that's why you should retire them and get new rookies.
Yup ... that's why you should retire them and get new rookies.
Galak
You know, I've been thinking about this comment and I have to ask why is this a part of the design mentality of the game? To me it feels like a carry over from 'the other game' (hereafter TOG) in which high levels of violence were needed to try and impose some level of balance and controls. Of course it never quite worked out for various reasons. But Elfball is inherently balanced. Having the cap surely means that there doesn't need to be the same level of violence level control.
If anything, to me the cap and easy manner of replacing players is too far in the opposite direction since it means that coaches are much more likely to simply ditch a player at the first sign of injury and there is very little reason (at least initially) to not do so. The cap eliminates the downward spiral which is so prevalent in TOG and in doing so I really feel that injuries should in fact be not quite as severe. Eball feels much more like rugby which is a very physical game in which injuries occur, and often, but they are not the intent of tackles. TOG felt more like American Football on steroids in which players really were going for the throat.
I know that I am not actually offering any alternatives but replacing players at the drop of a hat feels to me like they are just interchangeable bits in a machine rather than being given a chance to develop some personality. At times in TOG you really had to struggle on with players that weren't at their optimum and to me (and of course this is all just 'to me') that was half the fun.
You know, I've been thinking about this comment and I have to ask why is this a part of the design mentality of the game?
I have to let Tom answer that but I do know that it works.
mattwakeman wrote:
But Elfball is inherently balanced. Having the cap surely means that there doesn't need to be the same level of violence level control.
So we should remove casualties from the game to make it more fun?
Sorry, not in my opinion.
mattwakeman wrote:
If anything, to me the cap and easy manner of replacing players is too far in the opposite direction since it means that coaches are much more likely to simply ditch a player at the first sign of injury and there is very little reason (at least initially) to not do so.
How many games have you played with skills, and how many games have you played where you had to earn those skills?
I can tell you from experience that it takes (if you're playing multiple test games) about 3 games for a player to earn a skill. If you're playing game to just one score then it takes 7 or 8.
You're not gonna be so quick to let a guy go who has 2 or 3 skills.
You're also extrapolating from Bl00d B0wl and not Elfball. In Elfball the teams grow as a unit more than they do in that other game. You don't end a game and get 1 or 2 guys with a skill roll. You end the game with 5 or 6 guys earning a skill.
Teams develop in a different way, once your team starts earning skills you have to cut players. That means you are probably not only going to cut players with injuries but players without injuries as well...unless you don't but their skills until later.
Also in my league we had a house rule that players of common positions could be traded between teams and cut players were up for grabs (as long as your team had the appropriate position available). This allowed rookie teams to grab the skilled player scraps from the elder teams. You're not gonna let that guy go right away either.
mattwakeman wrote:
The cap eliminates the downward spiral which is so prevalent in TOG and in doing so I really feel that injuries should in fact be not quite as severe. Eball feels much more like rugby which is a very physical game in which injuries occur, and often, but they are not the intent of tackles. TOG felt more like American Football on steroids in which players really were going for the throat.
I know that I am not actually offering any alternatives but replacing players at the drop of a hat feels to me like they are just interchangeable bits in a machine rather than being given a chance to develop some personality. At times in TOG you really had to struggle on with players that weren't at their optimum and to me (and of course this is all just 'to me') that was half the fun.
I don't think you have developed an Elfball team yet. Play a team for 20 games (using multiple tests) and then come back and tell me you never had to field a character with a limp. _________________ Dominate, subjugate & infuriate.
Catechize, criticize & proselytize.
Repudiate, abrogate & annihilate.
All good points and I will freely admit to not having played nearly enough games to be able to have definitive opinions (even if that is an oxymoron). And I am not suggesting at all that casualties should be removed but rather than the game seems to be balanced not only from the outset but also in how teams will develop and progress that the severity of injuries seem somehow out of keeping.
Strikers, Widowmakers, Deadwoods, Hobimps, Gnomes, Gnomish Contraptions, Gorillaurs, Tantors and Ice Trolls will not be able to stand up from being dazed without being assisted if they have suffered only one injury. Now I don't have any problem with that per se but it just seems that injuries will be happening often enough to make that seem, admittedly from merely looking at this point, somehow just a little too much.
Perhaps with more experience I will revisit this and see if I feel the same way. I can see, for example, that the time it takes to gain skills does indeed mean that you are less likely to simply remove a player but it just feels like one injury shouldn't have the quite dramatic effect that it could do for that many players.
Note Matt ... several of the players you listed in your list have high Grit which means the odds of them suffering an injury that reduces a stat is significantly low.
In addition ... several of those players are high Might which means that they are not going to often be the subject of tackles. Big Guys in Elfball get tackled a LOT less then in B.lood B.owl.
In order for your complaint to carry through ... you'd have to see a high rate of -1 Stat injuries to these players during play. You don't see that normally which means the problem is to me more one of a paper discussion than what actually happens in the game.
I'm not discounting your opinion ... NOT AT ALL. I think you raise a valid concern that if -1 Stats happen often enough it could be an issue. I just don't think they happen that often and especially not on many of the players that would suffer while being Dazed.
The other side of this is you not only need a decent amount of -1 Stat injuries for this to be an issue ... but you also need to see a decent amount of Dazed players during a game for it to be an issue.
Heck in most the games I play ... both me and my opponent maybe see 3 Dazed players max the whole game.
So since the two need to intersect to be a problem ... I agree that if you get a player that needs an helper to get up from being Dazed that that will not be a lot of fun ... but it won't be a commonly occuring item in practice.
You know, I was just thinking about what I had said after I had posted it and I realised that using high grit players to support my point doesn't actually make that much sense does it really!
The more I think about it the more I think that you are right and I am taking too much from too small a sample of games that I have played. I really like how injury works in EBall as it diminishes players gradually rather than the killer strike which happens in TOG.
I shall play another 20 games or so before returning to this I feel but thanks to both of you for the points raised.
I shall play another 20 games or so before returning to this I feel but thanks to both of you for the points raised.
Just to be clear, I wasn't discounting your opinions either. Just saying that we haven't seen this happen.
Rookies are easily replaced and yes...when a rookie gets his thin candy shell cracked he is fed to the wolves and new one takes his place, but if you think about it, that's more like real life than TOG.
BTW, there is also one other thing I didn't mention and it's an often over looked part of Elfball leagues. My league was just getting to the point where we were realizing that buying skills as soon as you have the points for them isn't always the best idea. It results in a lot of skilled players but then most of them have to get cut or other major manager type decisions happen.
I haven't seen it happen but I can extrapolate that there will be plenty of times when players with NO skills but several goal points will be injured. The player could be sitting on 10 goal points but no skills and take an injury that reduces his highest stat.
That's a real decision right there! Do you let him go or save him? Tough call, and no right answer for it.
And one last thing:
mattwakeman wrote:
Strikers, Widowmakers, Deadwoods, Hobimps, Gnomes, Gnomish Contraptions, Gorillaurs, Tantors and Ice Trolls will not be able to stand up from being dazed without being assisted if they have suffered only one injury.
Deadwood's, Ice troll's and Tantor's highest attribute is Might. One injury would reduce their Might to 5 (or 4 for the Troll) and not affect their stand up chances.
Likewise Gnomish Contraptions have three abilities that are 5's so the coach could choose to lower Tackle or Might instead. _________________ Dominate, subjugate & infuriate.
Catechize, criticize & proselytize.
Repudiate, abrogate & annihilate.
Okay I just want to take credit for that one (yes sometimes I'm a kid who has to show off his sand castle).
If another game does that ... I haven't played it to date.
I wanted to add to Elfball leagues the idea of potential. IE the kids been around .... he's picked up some concepts but hasn't applied himself to really one direction as to the type of player he is.
This way ... you can have a player that acts as a potential backup for several other players instead of just one type.
I liked this idea a lot as it mimics real life to me a bit to represent the experience a player absorbs while play for his team but doesn't really show until you press him into service.
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